In this latest episode of the Fresh Start Family Show, powerful positive parenting educator & family life coach Wendy Snyder is thrilled to chat with Sam Kelly, a therapist turned feminist coach for mothers.
Together, they tackle a challenging issue close to many – the invisible load mothers bear and how to encourage children to contribute with chores.
This episode focuses on the importance of parental education, the emotional dynamics within a family, and the gendered expectations entrenched in our society.
The conversation opens with Wendy’s heartfelt acknowledgment of Sam Kelly’s influential work and the movement she has spurred. Together they explore Sam’s path to becoming a passionate advocate for sharing the domestic burden equitably.
Core to the discussion are the strategies Sam has formulated to empower children with the skill of noticing household tasks and participating without the traditional coercive tactics.
This episode is an eye-opener on how intrinsic motivation and household collaboration can be nurtured, surfacing as an essential guide for all parents seeking harmony and efficiency at home!
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Episode Highlights:
- Transitioning from Chore Charts: Shift from traditional chore assignments to teaching kids the ‘noticing’ skill to recognize household tasks that need attention.
- The Big Three and Notice-and-Do Method: Introduce daily responsibilities, known as the Big Three, coupled with one additional task chosen through noticing, to foster intrinsic motivation and teamwork.
- In-depth Conversations: Engage in meaningful discussions with children regarding societal expectations, invisible labor, and the ‘bigger why’ behind household cooperation.
- Visual Reminders for Independence: Utilize visual cues such as lists with pictures or photographs of clean rooms to encourage self-guided responsibility in children.
- Effective Collaboration: Replace demands for cooperation with the aim of collaboration, particularly with teens, to foster a sense of teamwork rather than obedience.
Resources Mentioned:
Follow Sam on Instagram @samkelly_world
Check out Sam’s little cycle breakers program! www.freshstartfamilyonline.com/cyclebreakers
Sam’s viral IG post on Notice & Do
Not able to listen or prefer to read along? Here is the transcript!
0:00:03 – (Wendy): Well, hey there, families, and welcome to a new episode of the Fresh Start Family show. We’re so happy that you’re here today on the show. I am thrilled to welcome Sam Kelly to the podcast, who is a feminine coach, feminist coach for mothers. And my goodness, is she amazing. You guys, I cannot wait for you to get to know Sam and just talk about the incredible topic today that we’re going toa discuss around the invisible load of mothers and how to gain cooperation with kids to do chores.
0:00:36 – (Wendy): Pitch in around the house. Hallelujah. Welcome to the show, sam.
0:00:41 – (Sam): Thank you so much. Happy to be here.
0:00:45 – (Wendy): Yes, I’so happy to have you here. I mean, I have. This is. The podcast is really. I love every aspect of my job as a parenting educator and family life coach, but this podcast is my favorite because I get to interview so many incredible people and I always get excited for interviews. But I’m telling you, the team and I, for this. This one, we were, like, chomping at the bit to talk to you and glean your wisdom and, like, all the things, because I think what you are doing, Sam, and your voice and, like, really, the movement you have started is so important and very different, and it’s just phenomenal what you’re doing. And we’re really grateful for your work, and we’re really happy you said yes to being here with us today. So welcome to the show.
0:01:32 – (Sam): Thank you so much. Can you just, like, be by my side for the rest of my life.
0:01:36 – (Wendy): And say nice things to me?
0:01:38 – (Sam): But I’m feeling real good right now.
0:01:42 – (Wendy): Yes. If you will be by my side and get my kids to pick up the shit more often. Yes, that would be wonderful. Can we can be besties? Oh, my goodness. Well, I I want you to introduce yourself in a minute and just tell. And I already did, like, your formal introduction in. In the intro to this episode. But I really want families to. To learn your story and hear your beautiful, like, you know, reason why you’re here and so passionate about this.
0:02:10 – (Wendy): But I will say before we do that, this really is a meaningful conversation to me because. So I’ve been a parenting educator and family life coach for more than a decade now. I found the work when my kids, my little girl, who’s my strong willed little girl, the reason why I’m an educator. I found the work when she was three, and we did, like, a full 180 in our parenting walk, and it just saved our lives. And now we just feel like we’re thriving with teenagers, which is not the norm. Right.
0:02:36 – (Wendy): Our kids are 13 and 16 now. And parenting just feels so, like, so good and healthy and, like, of course it’s intense. Raising human souls is intense, but we’re just thriving, right? And there’s one achilles heel area that kicks my ass quite often, and that is chores. And I’ve had so many students over the years that have said to me, Wendy, you know, and I do quite a bit of coaching around, how do we get our kids to help out and clean up their play spaces and contribute, right?
0:03:11 – (Wendy): And I’ve, like, really been actively trying to come at it from an angle of, like, there’s gotta be a way to inspire kids to do this and be more successful. And of course, because of what I teach, I teach intrinsic motivation. Everything we do in powerful, positive parenting work is around intrinsic work, right? Like, we remove the external controls, we remove the fear and force. So it’s. Over the years, I’ve been, like, a little bit of a head scratcher of, like, I know that I’m not into, like, the bribery and rewards and the fear and force, and I still am. We’re just not totally there when it comes to, especially teenagers. Right?
0:03:55 – (Wendy): And so I know I’ve seen some of the success stories that are flying out of your community when it comes to, like, your notice and do way of. In the way you’re educating your kids and kids around the world and spouses around the invisible load. Like, I can just tell it’s working. So I really am chomping at the bit to jump into today’s discussion. Cause I know it’s gonna bless our listeners, but it’s also really gonna deeply bless me and give me just an extra teaching edge that is so important. So, with all that said, sam, set us up with your story.
0:04:32 – (Wendy): How did you get here? You’re a therapist, turn feminist coach for moms and talk us through, like, what happened for you that caused you to be so passionate about what you teach now?
0:04:45 – (Sam): Sure. I have three kids. My oldest is eleven. And then I have a nine year old and a six year old. We’ve got, like, potential, highly, highly likely neurodivergen, strong will, passionate, big feeling kids, wonderful kids. And I, like almost every other default parent, which is normally the mom in this country, was carrying the vast majority of my family’s mental load. And I was doing that for over a decade. And then in.
0:05:23 – (Sam): In 2022, I woke up one day and I was just like, I can’t do this anymore. Like, I am suffocating. I am drowning. This is so, so heavy. And at that point, I started broaching the really hard discussions with my husband and working on the inequity, then inequity in our marriage and teaching him about what invisible labor is, everything that goes on in my brain during the day, the constant running to do list that never turns off.
0:06:02 – (Sam): And we started from 2022 to 2023. We were working on that. That was the biggest thing that we were working on. Together again and again and again. And it was a long, hard road, and we are still in it. We’ve grown so, so much, but it’s still an ongoing process. So then, in the summer of 2023, I was making a Saturday morning to do list, like a chore chart for my kids. And I just had this big light bulb moment where I was like, what am I doing?
0:06:40 – (Sam): I just spent the last year of my life teaching my husband how to not rely on me as the woman, to be the only one in a house full of people who has the awareness over what needs to be done, when it needs to be done, how it needs to be done. Overseeing tasks like noticing and doing everything and then just giving people lists. Why am I doing that right now for my kids? Why am I teaching my kids to have to rely on me to do the invisible work that goes into making a list? Because I think as women in particular, and moms, there’s. We just do so much on autopilot because this is just the job, whether we like it or not. This is just like the job we’ve been given.
0:07:28 – (Sam): This is the expectation society has for us. So when you look at everything that goes on behind the scenes of the work required to make a list, it’s considerable. And so chore charts are great. But ultimately, chore charts miss the first, most important step of task execution, which is the noticing. And it defaults that emotional labor, that invisible labor, onto the mom to do all of that in order to assign tasks for kids.
0:08:00 – (Sam): So right then and there, I was like, we’re not doing this anymore. I am not raising my children to have to rely on me for this. And then to have my daughters go into relationships carrying the vast majority of their family’s mental load and my son going into a potential partnership and just expecting the woman to do everything.
0:08:19 – (Wendy): Yeah.
0:08:20 – (Sam): And that’s when we flip the script on the chorech chart. And I started talking to them about what invisible labor means. I started talking to them about the mental load. I started talking to them about the fact that we are going to start learning how to notice, because noticing is a learned skill. And if we don’t require that learned skill of children. They never have the opportunity to learn how to do it.
0:08:44 – (Sam): And then regardless of what their future partnerships are like, like, in the same way, I want my kids to learn how to ride a bike or make friends or tie their shoes or brush their teeth, I want them to learn the skill of noticing, because it’s so much harder to reprogram an adult brain to notice. So much harder. Like, there’s so many adults in my inbox all the time saying, oh, my word. Why was I not taught this as a kid?
0:09:13 – (Sam): It’s so hard to have to teach yourself and retrain yourself as an adult. And my life, like, all of these little things just keep piling up, and then they become big things, and then it feels overwhelming and chaotic because I just cannot get under control because it’s so hard to teach myself. So, anyways, that’s what we’re doing. Yeah.
0:09:34 – (Wendy): Amazing. And now it feels like you’ve really poured your heart and your time and your resources into, like, building out this movement. So are you not doing therapy work anymore but, like, pouring everything into this? Ye.
0:09:48 – (Sam): So. And I stopped doing, like, practicing therapy over ten years ago when I started having kids and I was a stay at home mom, still am, and started finding lots of different ways to make income from home. So. So, yeah, I. It was crazy. Back in. Let’s see. In the fall, I first posted on Instagram a post that said, I think it was something like, I’m teaching my kids about the invisible labor of managing a home. Here’s how.
0:10:19 – (Sam): And just kind of outlined in a carousel the steps that I was doing, and it went crazy, crazy, crazy viral. And it just, like, every single post since then, you know, because I just think it’s hitting on the fact that we as women and mothers are just, like, dying, dying in so many ways. We’re being crushed by the mental load, and we’re tired of being a one mom band for our family, and we want our family to work together as a team.
0:10:53 – (Wendy): It’s so true. And it’s like, you know, there’s a saying that I’ll say often when I’m coaching, and it’s. It’s tough. It’s. It feels a little harsh sometimes, and. But at the same time, it’s with love and compassion that I say it. But we often train people how to treat us. And, yes, there is cultural conditioning, and we are part of that. Right. But then we have the ability to lip the script on that, like you said, and change the training. Right. But I know, like, for me, in our marriage.
0:11:25 – (Wendy): So I’ve been married 22 years to my best friend, Soulmate. Got so lucky so young with him, and he really is one of those unicorn amazing men who just always has been an equal partner. And I still feel the invisible load, right? Like, I still, and I still fall into the rhythm of, like, I’ll do it. And plus you add strong willed personality, loves to lead. Perfectionism, which we know quite often comes from actually shame.
0:11:57 – (Wendy): If we do it all and we accomplish it all, then we’re good and loved. But if we don’t, we’re not. So it’s been interesting as I’ve looked at your work and analyze kind of the things that goes on in my own home. But the more you do it for people, the less than they realize that it would actually be easier on everyone’s nervous system and the family if they actually contributed more. Because they don’t quite realize, right.
0:12:25 – (Wendy): And we don’t even realize that what we’re doing is burning us out and crushing us. And why are we so exhausted at the end of the night? Well, a lot of times it’s like, it sure seems like we don’t realize that we need to ask for support and we need to retrain and help people understand that we’re notnna do it all. And so here’s how, like you said, we can work it as a team. And it’s amazing. And I think your work, I think if it’s, it sounds like to me, when you started posting and sharing your heart about this, it was probably perfect timing because it was like, aligned with the Barbie movie, where so much is highlighted around, like, the patriarchy, the expectations of women. And America Ferrera, I saw that she’s up for an Oscar around, like, her rant, her beautiful rant around the expectation of women.
0:13:17 – (Wendy): And, you know, they just call bullshit on that and they’re like, no more. We’re not goingna do this anymore. And it’s moving. I think a lot of people were just bawling in the theater or when you watch that movieuse it just resonates so deeply. It’s like, you know, women are expected to do this, but they’re not this, they, the blah blah blah this, but this. So it’s just awesome. And I am, like, also watching my own, my own body and feelings around this as I look back over, I mean, we’ve had kids now for 16 years, so, like, let’s just say the last decade of sometimes I will feel like an annoyance of, and again, my partner is so amazing. He’s like, the Rocktar partner. But I will feel this annoyance if I feel like he’s asking me, like, what do we do? Where are we going?
0:14:07 – (Wendy): When’s this appointment? Where’s the cleaning? Where’s, like, whatever. He’s just asking. But I feel this inner annoyance that I have to, like, watch. I get to watch my tone and change the story in my brain. So I respond with respect. And I don’t always get it right, but I can feel this annoyance of, like, why do I have to be the person telling everybody what to do? And it’s such a scarcity statement. I don’t have to.
0:14:32 – (Wendy): I don’t have to be that person. And with your work and with your teachings, we get to have a different reality in our homes. So it’s just beautiful. Just so beautiful. Okay. Amen.
0:14:49 – (Sam): Yeah.
0:14:50 – (Wendy): Because, gosh, I mean, yeah, there’s just so much that as parents, as mothers, like, we need to have our energy and our nervous system settled so we can actually do life the way we want. Right? And if we’re so overwhelmed and our decision fatigue is so tapped out by 04:00 p.m. That we’re snapping and short and exhausted and then not sleeping well because we’re thinking about all the things. So let’s change it.
0:15:19 – (Sam): Let’s change. Let’s change it, Sam.
0:15:21 – (Wendy): Okay. All right. So let’s just dive into our first way of doing this. So if we want to educate our kids about the invisible load of moms and really gain their cooperation to do chores and pitch in around the house and not try to make these classic strategies work, which I will tell you from working with thousands of parents and trying it in my own home, especially if you have a strong willed kid, they just fall flat.
0:15:50 – (Wendy): Like the external controls. I’ll pay you $10 if you clean your room and do your stuff this week, and I’ll give you a jelly bean if you clean up, or if you don’t clean up the playroom, then you will get your iPad taken away. Right? Like, the classic external controls. I’ve seen them time and time again. They may work for a week or two, and then often, especially if you’ve got strong willed kids, they just fall flat. And then resentment and bitterness and fighting and fear and force or bribery and rewards enter in, and it’it’s just drama. It’s a nightmare instead. Like, we just need to figure out how to instill intrinsic motivation and belonging in the home and power that comes from working as a team. So talk to us about this. Point number one is how do we set our kids up for success?
0:16:42 – (Wendy): Sam.
0:16:43 – (Sam): Okay, so I, and let me just mention too here if for anyone who’s interested, I have a full free guide that they can access at any point. And it goes through all of this. It’s a printable PDF, super, super helpful. But the gist of it is, basically, we want to set them up for success by first weaning them off of the chore chart, especially if you’re someone like me or you where our kids are a little bit older and we’ve done a decade plus of doing it this one way.
0:17:16 – (Sam): We can’t just expect our kids to immediately, like, flip on a dime and be able to effectively do this entire new skill that they have zero experience, understanding or awareness of. So we’re going to take the, some of the structure of the chore chart and use that with some differences. So I have what’s called the big three. One of my current core students calls it the dailies, which I actually really love, too.
0:17:46 – (Sam): And it can be any number for our family. We’ve done three. The big three are things are tasks that they are responsible and have ownership over for themselves, doing every single day. And they can be for your family. Anything you want, dependent on your kids ages, your personalities. The way I like to explain it is think of something or like one to two things that, you know, you want your kids to learn how to do routinely on autopilot every single day that they’re not already doing.
0:18:19 – (Sam): And then those are the big three for them. And we also want those tasks to be really, really, like, simple for them to accomplish, so they can start to build that confidence of like, okay, this isn’t so bad. I can do this. So for our family, our big three is every day they make their beds outside of the bed. I don’t care what. Their room is their domain, and that’s totally fine. But making, waking up and making your bed, that’s like a good habit I want to instill in my kids. So they make their bed every day.
0:18:50 – (Sam): They check to see if the dishwasher needs to be unloaded, and they take one section of the dishwasher to unload and then their laundry. Now, their laundry is not something that needs to be done every single day, because they’re not creating that much laundry, but what they do for, like, the quote unquote work of the laundry is they go upstairs and they check the dryer, and they see if there is laundry that’s in the dryer, clean, ready, to be folded.
0:19:16 – (Sam): And so we’re reinforcing the idea of it’s more than just checking a box and getting the laundry done. It’s going up and noticing whether or not the laundry needs to get done. It’s not going to need to get done every day. But they’re not asking me if there’s laundry. I’m not telling them, hey, guys, by the way, there’s laundry. It’s their responsibility to have that ownership over going and seeing for themselves. And if sometimes they’ll be like, mom, is their laundry? And I’ll say, I don’t know, is there?
0:19:44 – (Sam): Remember, that’s part of the invisible labor of the laundry. So even more. And, like, the dishwasher, too, like, more than just unloading it, it’s checking to see if the dishes need to be unloaded and then unloading the dishwasher. So those are there, what we call in our family the big three, responsible for doing every single day. And then in addition to the big three, they do one notice and do of their choosing, and that can be anything that they want. And in the beginning, we walked around the house, we talked about what they can notice, talked about how to notice, because, again, this is something that they need to be taught. We can’t just say, just notice something and then do it.
0:20:27 – (Sam): We have to give them the skills and really break it down and show them so they can. Like, let me think of just last night, like, my six year old son. I went on the staircase, and there was some stuff on the staircase. He took that up to his bedroom. He went into the playroom and did a little playroom reset, clearing off, like, the dining room table. I mean, it really can be anything. So big three plus one notice and do. So they’re learning age appropriate cleaning skills coupled with the skill of being able to notice.
0:21:02 – (Sam): And then those two things come together with, on top of it, the extra layer that’s really, really important, especially when we’re talking about intrinsic motivation, is having those conversations with your kids about why we’re doing this? I call it the bigger why.
0:21:18 – (Wendy): Why?
0:21:18 – (Sam): Like, what is the whole point of this? Talking to them about gendered societal expectations, talking to them about the mental lo, what does invisible labor mean? What are some examples of it in my life? In their life. Because they’re doing invisible labor in their life. They just don’t know what it is. And so then they can start to kind of connect the dots, and everything comes together, and it sounds, as I’m doing it, I’m like, wow, this sounds like it’s like seamless and perfect and.
0:21:47 – (Wendy): It’S not, it’s messy as hell, right?
0:21:50 – (Sam): We’re doing, we’re working with humans, we’re all like, it’s a process, it’s a process, it’s a process, this process. But we’re keeping that long, long game perspective in mind. But this structure, this system, it absolutely works, and it works for all different types of families, all different types of needs, ages, everything, because the structure and the system and the concepts around it set everyone, like you said, it sets them up for success and it creates an entire like culture shift in your home.
0:22:25 – (Wendy): O’s so good. And I’m not gonna have you answer this yet, I’m gonna save this question for the end because we may just cover it naturally, but I know every single listener right now, if they’re anything like me, is like hu. This sounds like so easy, but I don’t know if, I don’t think my kid will do that or like. And I mean, I am like a master at getting my kids to cooperate, like, well, right? Like I really consider myself a master. But man, when it comes to housework and chores, it’s like I feel like they are just like I am chill sitting on the couch. Why their literal rot grows in the cup that had Gatorade or juice in it. Like, it does not bother me, mom, for that cup to rot, right? So we’re gonna save it for the end because I know every parent is thinking, and what do you do when they don’t do these notice and dos and the three, the big three, right, but in toa just save that. I wann plant that in our brain. Cause listeners, I get you, I feel you, you’re human.
0:23:30 – (Wendy): But I wanna just go back to this conversation for 1 minute because I guess we should have probably started there, right Sam? Because that is the pivotal piece, right? And you have a six year old, and so it sounds like you started this conversation when that little six year old was five, is that correct? And so like talk to us about how you come beside and engage these kiddos. I mean, you talked it, you mentioned, right? Gender, societal expectations, the invisible labor. And as I was talking to my husband and telling him how excited I was about this conversation, he was saying like, yeah, because kids have invisible loads too, right? Like still, I look at Stella 16 and Taran 13, and I can’t even imagine like how much they are managing in their brains because they’re both like high level athletes, great students.
0:24:20 – (Wendy): Um, they got a lot, they got the pressure of belonging as a teenager and fitting in and trying to stay quiet in class or whatever it may be. But. But when it comes to this engaging conversation, and we do a lot of, like, family meeting education, like, how do you run a family meeting once a week? That’s, like, really fun and engaging Andills teamwork in your home. But what is, like, what has been your key times when you’ve been like, oh, dang, that really reached them. Like, when I educated them about this, that reached my little one’s heart and it reached the ten year old’s heart. And they really seem to understand because I think all the how to is phenomenal, and we’re gonna continue to go through that.
0:25:03 – (Wendy): But, like, the engaging, helping them understand the why, which is so different than how many of us were raised right, is like, because I frickin said so. That’s why. You’renna clean up your crap. Because I said so. And if you don’t, then you’re not going anywhere this weekend. But now we’re coming beside them and we’re like, let me educate you about how detrimental this is to a human soul. It’s called the invisible load. But what are your tips on that conversation piece and really getting their air quotes buy in from the beginning, but from an educational standpoint, so they’re truly motivated because I feel like that’s what you’re teaching.
0:25:39 – (Wendy): You are teaching children. You are, like, transforming their hearts and helping them understand why they will feel so good inside when they contribute to be a part of the team, when they no longer put this load that’s crushing mom and help her thrive.
0:25:57 – (Sam): Right, right. And I love that you get this side of it because I think for a lot of people, it’s. Which is understandable. Right? They’re like, just tell me how to get my kids to do their crap and, like, let’s move on. But, like, no, like, there’s this huge, huge important piece that’s so, so crucial to making all of this work and function well. And actually, in my audio course, I have the step by step sequence of conversations to have.
0:26:28 – (Sam): So you.
0:26:29 – (Wendy): Nice.
0:26:29 – (Sam): I give you all of the words in order to use and obviously adapt it to your kids and whatnot. But so I wouldn’t say as far as your question of, like, where, like, for your kids, what was their big, like, aha moment? I don’t know if I can, like, really pinpoint an aha moment because honestly, when I was talking to my kids about it, I was just a little bit making it up as I go. Like, there was no blazing a trail. There was no road map. I was just like, okay, and we’re having a conversation right now, and I’m making up this phrase called notice and doom right now. And this is how I guess it’s Allnna fit together. So it was very, very, like, rough and ready and.
0:27:14 – (Sam): But at the same time, I will say I’ve never been one to, like, shy away from having big conversations with my kids in age appropriate, understandable ways. I think kids can understand so much more than what we give them credit for if we just give them a chance. I don’t think we need to be scared or fearful of talking to them about these bigger concepts, like patriarchal expectations for men versus women and, and how it’s the air we breathe every day, so.
0:27:50 – (Sam): And now I’ve kind of forgotten what your question is, but just so, the conversation, that’s great. The conversations, for me, it was talk, teaching them how, like, telling them about my own experience and my own story and not being afraid to go there and not being afraid to mention the struggle that I’ve had with my partner on it and, and saying, this is the reality. This is what happened. Like, dad is an amazing, supportive, open guy, and this still happened to us. And it was really, really hard, and we worked through it.
0:28:31 – (Sam): We worked through it. But we have, you guys have a chance to have a different experience, and I, this is like, my daughter’s her on Goldie, you have a chance to have this experience instead of this. And sh, my son, you have a chance to have this experience instead of this. And so instead of, instead of trying to be like a basketball team where one player is doing all the playmaking, all the passing, all the shooting, all the coaching, all the time for everyone, we are all players on this basketball team, and we are all going to work together to support each other so we can win games and so we can have fun and so we can, like, learn important life skills.
0:29:21 – (Sam): But it’s just interesting. When you give kids those words, when you give them the language around something, then they can be empowered to actually understand. And when they can understand, then they can do something about it.
0:29:39 – (Wendy): Sam could have been a for a perfect answer because I dropped into, like, my body of feeling, like I, when you were sharing, like, this has been our experience, and this is how, it’s like, I could just feel, I dropped into feeling as I was listening. So I can’t even imagine our children who are listening to us. Like, that’s how we form connection and really reach their heart as we share with honesty and authenticity.
0:30:09 – (Wendy): This is our family, and we’re amazing. But this mom was really struggling. I was really depressed and anxious, and, like, now we’re working through it, and we’re getting to the other side. But you can have a different experience, like the basketball team. It’s just amazing. And I can imagine your course just has so much more on that, too. So, by the way, families, you know, sam’s mentioned. She has this free guide that you can grab. She has this amazing course called little cycle breakers. We’re gonna put all that information on a special page.
0:30:38 – (Wendy): Freshstartfamilyonline.com/cyclebreakers. Very easy to remember. /Cyclebreakers. Frestartfamilyonline.com/cyclebreakers, and that’s where you can go grab this free guide. You can grab information about this course that Sam has. But that is exactly what I was looking for, because I do believe that’s the secret if you want all of it to work. And it’s not a one time conversation, right? It’s not like the sex talk. It used to be like, we’re gonna sit down and talk about the birds and bees. Like, nowadays, it’s like, no, we’re gonna talk to our kids 10,000 times about, like, the danger of porn and what? Like, all the things, right? Like, you’re gonna have 10,000 conversations. You’re not gonna have one conversation. But, like, we’re gonna have many.
0:31:24 – (Wendy): But every single one is gonna be steeped with education through connection and empowerment and belonging. Like, this is who we are as a family. And in my experience, sam, like, you know, we hold some really strong values here as a family in the Snyder household. And even though that’s resulted in firmer boundaries around a lot of things. Like, technology is an example, right? Like, my kids aren’t allowed to have an iPhone till high school, and they hate it, you know?
0:31:58 – (Wendy): But really standing for something has created such connection and belonging in our home. And by the time they get to high school and they get that coveted frickaking iPhone, they. But they also like the belonging, the sense of belonging that I’m part of a family that really stands for something. I can feel it. Even though they don’t necessarily say it. My daughter has said a few times, mom, I so get why you are so firm on these boundaries. And thank you.
0:32:30 – (Wendy): You know, and that’s after 17 tear Filledier field discussions around why it’s so hard to be different than other kids. But I’m just trying to say that this part is really important to me. And when you, when you build, my students know that, like, we’re all about building belonging, building power in kids. And when that happens, misbehavior decreases, cooperation increases. And this discussion part, the family meeting, the education, the authenticity, the humility, the honesty, the feeling part of it is just really going to be probably what actually gets kids to do the steps.
0:33:11 – (Sam): Right. Right. And at the end of the day, I will say, it’s not a magic wand. My kids are still very much kids. And I love how much you talk about cooperation, because that is the goal. They’re only going to learn, especially when you’re dealing with resistance, because that will still come up every now and then. Absolutely.
0:33:36 – (Wendy): Yeah.
0:33:37 – (Sam): But we’re not. What I try to remind people again and again is we’re not training perfect toilet cleaning monkeys, as nice as that would be. Sometimes that that’s not the goal. Right. Like, perfect.
0:33:50 – (Wendy): There are programs that will train that.
0:33:52 – (Sam): And they’re not these. I’m sure there are. We’re obience re calling for perfect, obedient compliance. We are going for cooperation on any level. And so working with your kids in such a way, and this is something like, I mean, entire, entire lesson on my course is all about resistance because we’ve seen it all in my house. So working with your kids in such a way to elicit the cooperation, even if they, quote unquote, don’t care, even if they don’t want to, even if they, like, are so, so strong willed, we can still make progress towards learning if we work towards cooperation.
0:34:35 – (Wendy): Yep. And collaboration. Right, Sam? Like, those two c’s, didn’t you have, like, didn’t you have some other.
0:34:41 – (Sam): Was your c is the big, I.
0:34:42 – (Wendy): Guess the big three. I was just creating content the other day and I was like, it was like the big three c’for, me, was operation, connection and confidence. But we can add collaboration to that, right?
0:34:56 – (Sam): Exactly. Well, for, I say instead of cooperation, I say collaboration, because when you’re working with teamens, it’s a little bit, I mean, like, ultimately, yes, cooperation, but you get to collaborate with teens. You get to work with them kind of on this whole new level that you can’t necessarily with kids just because they’re a little bit older and they want to be treated like adults, so you get to approach it differently.
0:35:21 – (Wendy): That is such a key. Like, that’s such a good tip of remembering to actually use the word collaboration when you’re talking with teens because, yeah, cooperation, especially if you have a strong willed kid, they’re like, collaboration. They’re going to respond better to.
0:35:36 – (Sam): Okay, let’s move into point number two.
0:35:38 – (Wendy): Which is give them tasks that they’re capable of doing and being responsible for every day. We kind of touched on that in, in the first three. But is there anything else you want to add to that before we move down to number three?
0:35:50 – (Sam): No, I think we. That one, I know we did.
0:35:53 – (Wendy): Okay, number three is break down into small steps how to see what needs to be done. This one’s fascinating because, as I said earlier, my kids will look at that cup with the mold in it and not think it’s a problem. So how do we help them understand how to see what needs to be done and to break it down into small steps? Because that is, like, I think any kid, that’s not like a lot of times when it comes to cleaning up, we, we teach four categories of misbehavior here at fresh start family, and one of them is inadequacy. And that’s basically like when a kid just doesn’t realize or understand.
0:36:36 – (Wendy): Like, they just feel like it’s too hard, it’s too much. This is impossible, so why even try, you know, like. And one of our key takeaways, if you wa. Want to redirect that kind of misbehavior, is to break it down into small steps. Cause then it’s. It is doable. Right. So talk to us about this one, Sam.
0:36:52 – (Sam): Right. I teach it in the same way that if you teach your kid how to tie your shoes, you’re going to teach them step by step with the understanding that it’s going to be a process, with the understanding that part of the learning process is modeling for them. Part of the learning process is showing them with patients as you model, maybe in the beginning, how they can participate in small ways. Really, I think the biggest thing here is diffusing the situation, because tying your shoes, teaching your kids tire your shoes, is like a very emotionally neutral situation.
0:37:34 – (Sam): But when we see that cup with the mold on it, it’s more than just a cup with mold on it. It trigger so much inside of us. And that’s when it starts feeling like. Like why can’t. Like, we don’t feel that way about tying shoes. And there’s real reasons behind that, right? Because it’s like, whatever. But when we approach the situation from that, very, very understandable. Like, obviously we feel that way when we’re the one doing everything for everyone always, and there’s a freaking cup sitting there with mold.
0:38:08 – (Sam): It’s like all of that pain, all that resentment and rage and anger that we keep trying to shove down because we just have to keep white knuckling our way forward. That gets poked, that gets, like, touched and brought up to the surface and it hurts. And so then we approach the situation from a much more, like, potentially emotionally volatile place. Shorter fuse. And it becomes so hard to teach in that situation.
0:38:38 – (Sam): So a huge part of this is like, giving ourselves so much grace and compassion and understanding that we have been doing a massively unfair share of work for so long because that is what was told to us that that is what is expected that we have to do. And if we don’t do it, nobody else is going to do it. And that’s not okay. And just like giving ourselves so much compassion there so we can help diffuse the situation and not project all of that onto our kid for our kid to then have to process for us.
0:39:13 – (Sam): So as we are going through and teaching them what to notice and how to notice, just bring it back again and again. This is. We’re just teaching you to tie their shoes. We’re just teaching them to.
0:39:22 – (Wendy): Yes, I love that.
0:39:24 – (Sam): This is fine. I can hold my anger, my eight rage, my resentment about this so my kid doesn’t have to. And so then they actually can learn. So for, like, let’s take the Moldy cup situation, for example. As we’re having conversations with our kids, as we’re teaching them how, we’re going to start shifting away from the chore chart to them being more proactive and getting to see for themselves what to do in the house.
0:39:53 – (Sam): We’re going to show them. Okay, so, for example, in the kitchen, this is how we do a kitchen reset. Are there certain things, like, I know a lot of families have things like, that are okay left on the kitchen counter, usually. Like, that’s fine. This pile of bills, all this paper over here, this junk, that’s fine. You guys don’t have to worry about that. This cup on the kitchen counter that’s sitting here molding, this is dirty.
0:40:19 – (Sam): So this needs to be put in the sink and. And then you can put it in the dishwasher. Let me show you how to notice whether or not the dishwasher is clean or empty. So we’re just.
0:40:31 – (Wendy): But, mom. But, mom, it’not, it’s not mine. It’s not my co. Oh, I love that. Mine.
0:40:37 – (Sam): I’m so glad you brought it up. Okay, so the way we responds, that is. You’re right, it’s not yours. Remember, part of what we’re doing is working together as a family team. Noticing and doing is not about whose s is who’s. It’s about seeing what needs to be done and doing it. And notice that that’s different than me being like, well, I clean up all your stuff all the time. We’re not. Again, that’s coming from that martyrdom place, our own mommy latyrdom.
0:41:08 – (Sam): And we want to come from an empowered energy. So we just say, notice and dues is not about who’s is who or who did what. We’re all working together as a family team.
0:41:20 – (Wendy): And the more we build our skill set around just noticing and doing more consistently versus pushing off and procrastinating, then we will continue to work more and more as a team, where there. There’s less. Just stuff out, if that makes sense. But that’s getting to advance, and we only have ten minutes.
0:41:44 – (Sam): So deep on this, and I love it.
0:41:47 – (Wendy): Okay, two things I have to say about this last one, and then our last point, is how we can create visual reminders that they can see every day. But first off, it’s like, when it comes to the triggering stuff, what I’ve noticed, Sam, and that I’ve been, like, working with my students on Dennotice two, is that a lot of times it is the anger and rage and all of it. But so much of the time underneath of that is actually the feeling of scared.
0:42:11 – (Wendy): Scared of failing, scared of being. Doing, like, failing at motherhood. Because if I’ve raised this entitled brat who thinks that somebody else is just gonna clean up their crap, like, I’m doing it wrong, I’m not doing enough, or the kitchen is so messy, and now when they resist, I get triggered. And on top, it may look like anger and rage, but really, deep down, it’s a fear. Scared of I’m failing.
0:42:38 – (Wendy): What kind of mother would let the kitchen get like this? Because it’s all on me, right? Like. And especially for all the stay at home mom. So it’s like you’ve been home literally parenting all day long, and if your kids were at school, you were probably booking appointments or making sure the PTA forms are filled in or carpooling and making sure the sports, like, all the invisible load. And so, yes, it’s everybody’s responsibility that the kitchen is a mess, but for some reason, it falls on you.
0:43:05 – (Wendy): And so then there’s just so much scared that’s actually at the root of the trigger that I find that if we can feel that and move through it, and then. Then we get to the bravery and courage of handling the situation like, we would tie in a shoe of, like, neutrality, bravery, courage, of, like, I can do this. I can approach this in a new way. That’s from empowerment. Like you said, sam, instead of, like, the trigger. Right, right.
0:43:32 – (Sam): Well, like, recognizing that it’s not. That fear and scarcity was never ours to have, and it’s not our fault that we feel that way. And obviously, we feel that pressure and we feel that fear, and we feel that, like, constant, no matter how fast we go, that constant not enoughness, because that is the cultural programming that we’ve all been raised in. That is the, like, air that we breathe, is that.
0:44:04 – (Sam): That is. It’s our responsibility. And if we don’t do it perfectly, then we’re not good enough, and it’s our fault. And even if we feel tired, even if we feel like we’re struggling, then we’re not good enough. So that fear that’s, like, that’s instilled in all of us. There’s a reason why it’s there and it’s not our fault. Yep.
0:44:28 – (Wendy): And then you add on traditional punishment that most of us were raised with, and if you mess up, there’s danger, there’s pain, there’s humiliation, there’s embarrassment. So, of course, getting it wrong, like, to our nervous systems, is dangerous, right? Like, that’s where we could spiral off on triggers all day long. But last thing I was going to say before we covered the visual reminder part real quick is.
0:44:51 – (Wendy): Is I love how you mentioned something about, like, hey, you get to feel. Like. You get to feel for yourself, is how you say. You said it, how it feels, right? So that’s what I’ve tried in the past, and I’m now, like, reinvigorated to do it more. But just, like, when a room or a kitchen is destroyed, which I am so good at doing, when I cook, I am like a destroyer. Like, I don’t clean as I go. I, like everywhere.
0:45:17 – (Sam): Like, quinoa, chicken broth.
0:45:20 – (Wendy): Like, it’s hilarious. But to have children understand that, like, feel in your body what it feels like to be in this room right now. And in our house, there’s two, like, huge dogs usually on the kitchen floor. There’s crap all over the, like, thing right there’you. Can barely, like, get in to wash your dish. Like, how does that feel in your body? Chaotic, stressed. Like, constriction. And you can do the same thing for bedrooms, too, right? And then, like, hey, let’s work as a team. Let’s do it, whatever. And then let’s just reanalyze like, how do we feel now? Like, once everything is clean, just to, like, like, to drive home the embodiment piece, right? Like, our bodies react to the chaos and the mold.
0:46:06 – (Wendy): So I don’t know. Just thought about that. Okay, last thing, Sam, is talk to us about how we can create a visual reminder that they can easily see every day. And again, listeners, I know Sam covers all of this in her course, and she has the free takeaway. You can head to freshstartfamilyonline.com/cyclebreakers to get all of those links. But talk to us about this last point of the visual reminder.
0:46:30 – (Sam): Okay, so for us, the visual reminder and what a lot of families are doing is they’re creating their big three, and then they’re doing it together as a family and writing down. And lots of times for littles, like maybe drawing a little picture as, like, a visual reminder cue and posting it somewhere where they can see every day. So we want to create opportunities for them to remind themselves and to have that visual cue so your reminders through this learning process become easier and easier and lower lift for you.
0:47:03 – (Sam): Another thing that you can do, especially for, like, kids with neurodivergence, is you can, like, take a picture of a clean room or, like, a reset room, what I call, like, clean enough, because we’re not going for perfection. I love enough idea. Take a little picture while they’re learning. Put it on their wall so they can just look at it and be like, okay, this is the goal. This is the goal. So you don’t have to be the one again doing all of the work to explain again and again and walk them through the process again, and they can start to feel empowered and confident in their ability to be more independent.
0:47:43 – (Wendy): I love that. Yeah, the visual is so powerful. We have a lesson inside of our frshrad experience membership program. It’s called a gazillion logical consequences ideas, and it’s like, compassionate discipline that replates, replaces punishment. But I have this file that I teach on that I’ve saved from the last 13, no, 16 years of parenthood, and I saved every single thing I ever did with the kids. And there’s, like, multiple charts in there that are so cute from when Stella was, like, three years old, and the hand drawings, and there’s, like, coffee spilled on them.
0:48:17 – (Wendy): And there’s, like, this one chart that we took pictures and, like, my husband’s a graphic designer, so he actually did, like, put it on a nice chart, but it’s like, pictures of her when she was three, like, going potty or like brushing her teeth or happy reading in bed as we snuggle. It was like her nighttime chart. But it’s amazing what the visual can do for children. And that will save you that expenditure of energy. Right?
0:48:43 – (Wendy): And then also, I love the idea of the clean or the good enough finished room clean enough. That again, will trigger the feeling in their body that that’s the intrinsic motivation that we’re looking for. Right? Like, nobody loves to, like, climb in their bed when their room is, like, hoarded with, like, dirty stuff and they can never find their, they’re volleyball jersey. And it’s like nobody likes that feeling. So just keeping them, like, coming back over and over again to, like, remember your body feels so good when it’s like this. Your brain feels relaxed, you can concentrate, you can think straight. Your anxiety goes down. Like, all that stuff is so beautiful. So.
0:49:21 – (Wendy): Oh, my goodness, Sam. Well, we are at time, but what a this, just as I thought, was a conversation that was so beautiful did not disappoint. And families again, freshstartfamilyonline.com/cyclebreakers but also, Sam, let listeners know where they can come find you to support your work and learn more. And I’m just going to put it in your ear right now. If you are not yet, you need to write a book. So you should. You don’t need to.
0:49:50 – (Wendy): You should one day because this is, that would be just, I think, a wonder, another wonderful way to get this information in. But I know for now, you’ve got your course right. You do a ton on social. So tell us, tell listeners where to come find you.
0:50:03 – (Sam): So I’m on Instagram, Sam Kellyor and that’s also where you can access all my resources as well.
0:50:12 – (Wendy): Amazing. And we’ll make sure we post. We had pulled our takeaways today from one of Sam’s most popular posts that went viral. So we’ll make sure we link that too in the show notes for today’s episode. But just head on over freshstartfamilyonline.com/cyclebreakers to grab her free guide, learn more about her incredible, very affordable course to teach you all of the details about what we’ve talked about today. But Sam, thank you. I pray that as you continue to do your work, you feel peace and the immense just joy that comes from helping families in this capacity. Cause you really are changing lives. And it’s, it’s this, this topic, like, feels like on the outside it would be very surface level, like, let’s get our kids to clean up their crap. But this is like a very deep, beautiful way to help mothers heal and transform families, and it is very important what you’re doing. So thank you so much again for being here.
0:51:13 – (Sam): Thank you. You’re such a beautiful person. I appreciate the chance to just get to chat with you for a bit.
0:51:18 – (Wendy): Oh, well, thanks for being here and thanks for listening, Fresh Start Family. Community. We love you.
