In this enlightening episode of the Fresh Start Family show, host Wendy Snyder is joined by Penny Williams, an eminent figure in the arena of ADHD, autism, and neurodiversity. The conversation delves into the transformative perspectives on parenting and understanding challenging behaviors, offering solace and strategic insight to families navigating parenting with a connected, firm & kind approach.
The dialogue opens with Penny’s personal journey, highlighting the challenges encountered following her son’s ADHD and autism diagnoses. The episode illuminates the profound shifts from attempting to ‘fix’ perceived problems to genuinely fostering a nurturing environment tailored to a child’s unique neurology.
Penny shares transformative ideas that redefine behavioral challenges, fostering an empathetic approach that aligns with both scientific insights and humane intuition. The discussion underscores the importance of recognizing and addressing the underlying causes of misbehavior, such as regulatory states, rather than merely addressing the symptoms.
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Episode Highlights:
- Behavior is not inherently good or bad but is indicative of being regulated or dysregulated, linked directly to our nervous system and sense of safety.
- Judgments surrounding behavior need to be removed to properly understand that children’s challenging actions often signal they are having a hard time, not giving one.
- Shifting the perspective on behavior as simply a signal opens up pathways to address the root causes, creating meaningful and lasting change.
- Labels in neurodiversity can serve to understand a child better and provide reasons for their experiences, though they are not always necessary for progress.
- Parenting is less about being a contriving leader and more about serving as a guiding Sherpa, supporting the child’s unique journey without enforcing a predetermined path.
Resources Mentioned:
- Follow Penny on Instagram
- Penny Williams’ website and community resources: Parenting ADHD & Autism
- The Beautifully Complex Podcast
- Wendy’s episode on The Beautifully Complex Podcast
- Boy Without Instructions: Surviving the Learning Curve of Parenting a Child with ADHD
- Wendy & Penny IG LIVE
Not able to listen or prefer to read along? Here is the transcript!
0:00:03 – (Wendy): Well, hey there, families, and welcome to a new episode of the Fresh Start Family show. I am so happy to have Penny Williams here with me today. Welcome to the show, Penny.
0:00:12 – (Penny): Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited.
0:00:16 – (Wendy): I’m really excited to chat, too. Families, we are going to be talking today about how to see misbehavior in a new light. And Penny, oh, my goodness, you are just such a light in the world. I’ve had a few students mention you and we just in general have had so many requests to get more experts on the show who are specialist in ADHD, autism, neurodiversity. And so it’s just such a joy to have you here. Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to be with us, and I’m really excited to glean your wisdom today and get all your inspiration.
0:00:55 – (Penny): Thank you. Yeah, I love sharing.
0:01:00 – (Wendy): Good. Well, before we get into our subject matter around this idea of seeing misbehavior in a new light that is so different than how our parents, most of us, saw our misbehavior growing up, we’re goingna get all into that. But will you just start off by telling us your story? How did you get into this work? And I mean, gosh, you are just doing all incredible work in the world. I know you have a very big community of incredible families who love and adore you and all the things, but how did you get here? Why did you become so passionate about helping parents and families in this capacity in children?
0:01:37 – (Penny): Yeah, I got here by accident, right. Which is how a lot of us get to where we’re going. I got here by accident. I had a kid diagnosed with ADHD first in 2008. We added autism spectrum disorder six years later when he was twelve and there was no one telling us what to do. Had a parent, this kid, who needed more help and help in different ways in order to be able to succeed. And, you know, I made this appointment with the specialist. It took three months to get there.
0:02:14 – (Penny): He did his evaluation and then he said, well, it’s ADHD. Here’s three fact sheets. They reach one page and here’s a prescription. I’ll see you in six months, unless you need more. And that was it. That was Itang. I was blindsided because I didn’t think, I didn’t understand ADHD. So I didn’t think that fit. And I felt really lost and alone and I just had to dig in and figure it out. So I’m spending all my time online, on the Internet, researching.
0:02:47 – (Penny): I’m spending all my time reading books. I would take my son to his therapy appointments with arm loads of books every week. I would tell her what I’ve learned. She ended up having to put me on self help restriction, even though I was not her patient or client. But she could see that I was too entrenched in the struggle, but I couldn’t see it yet. Right. And so it took me about three years before I actually was doing anything that was remotely helpful.
0:03:20 – (Penny): So despite obsessing, spending all of my time reading all the books, I was still spendning my wheels. And it was because I was looking to fix it. And there is no fix. Our kids are who they are. They’re born with the brain, the wiring, the nervous system, the neurology that they have. And we have to help them find their success, their joy, what that looks like for them, navigating a neurotypical world.
0:03:48 – (Penny): And once I started to really understand behavior more, you know, those things that were happening that we were all trying to change because it didn’t fit with expectations, because it made other people uncomfortable. When I understood that, then I could really start to be helpful, which is why I’m so passionate about looking at behavior in a much different way than we do traditionally.
0:04:13 – (Wendy): Wow. Amazing. How old is your son now?
0:04:18 – (Penny): 21. He’s 21, yes. So we’ve been through all the ages and stages.
0:04:26 – (Wendy): And is he here only, or do you have more?
0:04:28 – (Penny): No, I also have an older daughter.
0:04:31 – (Wendy): Okay, cool. And how is your son doing now? Having a mama who’s entrenched in this work for the guest, if you. If he got dianosed when he was eight and he’s 21 now.
0:04:41 – (Penny): Yeah.
0:04:42 – (Wendy): Or six. Yeah.
0:04:44 – (Penny): So it’s been a long road. And, you know, he’s taught me so much about being a human being, about the ways we interact with others and about everyone having their own timing. That’s been the most crucial piece, especially now that he’s a young adult, because our society has very particular expectations for kids after high school, and we do not push our kid into that box. And so he spent two years after high school just being.
0:05:15 – (Penny): Just healing from that experience. A lot of gaming, honestly, a lot of time at home sometime doing some part time work, sort of thinking about what areas he might like to. To discover, right. To see if maybe they would be a fit for him. And now he has started taking some online courses and voice acting because he’s very interested in voiceover and voice acting work. He is literally right now, as we’re talking on a Zoom call with a successful puppeteer to learn about what it might be like to be a puppeteer, because voice acting can also work in that. Right. But just, like, be so open to his timing, what works for him, and reminding myself that we’re going toa get there, because let me tell you, when I open social media and other people’s 21 year olds are, you know, out in the world, self reliant, it can be hard.
0:06:19 – (Penny): It can be hard to really sit with that and be okay with a different path. But I’ve done so much work on myself, which has really been the key, my own work, that I can be comfortable with it most of the time. And when I’m not, I can. I have the self talk. I have that muscle to be able to get back to that space.
0:06:41 – (Wendy): Oh, I love it. That. That is so beautiful on so many different levels. You know, when you talk about when you first, you know, were in that season of just trying to fix it so much and then being able to settle into the more of, how are we going to help this kid thrive? Right? Like, that’s kind of the way I hear it. And I see you talk about a lot of, like, nervous system settling and regulation work, and I think, well, let me ask you this, Penny.
0:07:11 – (Wendy): Did you grow up in a home with, like, traditional autocratic style parenting? Just like the traditional. If you’re good, yeah. You get praise. If you’re bad, you get punished and out or spanking, whatever? Yeah.
0:07:21 – (Penny): Yeah. I was so sur grounded most of my teenage years.
0:07:26 – (Wendy): Oh, my gosh.
0:07:28 – (Penny): Okay.
0:07:28 – (Wendy): Yes, that makes sense. So then it seems like when we. When we enter into parenthood, and then, I mean, this is part of my story, but I just tell me if this connects with you. It’s like. And then all of a sudden, you start to have this challenging experience where you’re like, dang it, this is not what it was supposed to be. Like, something is wrong, something is broken. Like, I can so relate to that need to, like, think you need to fix it, right? Like, all these things.
0:07:54 – (Wendy): And my stella is 16 now. My little girl who got me into this work when she was three, she’s like an angel, because without her, I would not be an educator. I would not have done, gosh, it’s 14 years of personal development and healing and life coaching work that has just changed the entire future trajectory of my life. But back then, we did have her at all the doctors. And I remember just thinking, like, there’s got toa be something wrong. And if we just get a diagnosis, then, you know, we’ll at least have this game plan. We’ll know how to fix it. But it’s like, when you say that, I’ve never thought about that that much of, like, I really did think, like, we just need to fix this.
0:08:30 – (Wendy): And then as time has gone on and, like, I’ve learned more about nervous system, like, the way it gets so paved in the 18 years of us growing up, like, I realized that I just felt so unsafe in that season of, like, there is danger here. There is a problem. And then once you learn that, like, oh, we’re actually safe here. To have a very different kid, like, we’re okay. Like, it’s scary, and it’s a lot to figure out, and there’s going to be a lot of learning and, holy smokes, there’s all these emotions.
0:09:05 – (Wendy): But also, like, we’re safe, right? Like, we’re not in danger. Does that resonate with you at all as far as, like, back? If you think back in that season? Yeah, yeah.
0:09:15 – (Penny): You know, it’s a lack of control. And I am a person with anxiety. I have pretty significant social anxiety. And so for me, I get how impairing a lack of control can be. I started therapy over a year ago now for some personal reasons. And, you know, the very first day, the very first meeting at the end, she’s like, you have some control issues. I’m like, I know. That’s why I’m here. Let’s work on those.
0:09:51 – (Penny): But, yeah, as parents, like, and that. That really traditional, authoritarian parenting is all about control. And when you have a kid now, that that doesn’t work with, like, it’s a lot anxiety, right. Even if you’re not a person with an anxiety disorder, you’re going to be anxious about that because you fear what is going to happen for your kid and their future, right?
0:10:21 – (Wendy): And we get sick. And I think you fear so much of the, like, am I going to be accepted? Do I still belong? Like, am I going to be loved? Like, am I doing this wrong? Is someone going to judge me? Am I going to be criticized? Like, if my kid has a really hard time in elementary schooler needs an IEP. Is that what they’re called? Ieps, right? Iep, yeah. Like, am I going to be judged? The fear is just, oh, they come on so fast. And most of us were never taught how to feel scared.
0:10:55 – (Wendy): We were taught, like, happy’s okay, and anger was usually, like, displayed pretty dang well in our home, right? Like, you weren’t allowed to be angry as a kid, but your parents, like, there was anger, yes. But when it came to feeling scared or feeling hurt, like, it was always like, get up. You’re fine. You’re not even bleeding. Or, like, don’t be silly. There’s nothing to be scared of. Like, it’s not even dark outside.
0:11:18 – (Wendy): There’s not monsters here, whatever it may be. Or, like, um, so none of us were taught this, and then we enter this season of life where we are just kind of terrified. And it’s like that trigger that just feels like it can stop you in your tracks. And thank God for people like you. And I’m so grateful to be in the space, too, where we get to come in and say, you’re okay, you’re okay. We’re gonna figure this out. And one day at a time, you’re gonna learn new things and realize that the goal is to support and to learn tools to thrive instead of control.
0:11:56 – (Penny): So, yeah, I love that. The one thing I’ve learned more than anything, I think, is that our job is not to be the leader as a parent thatly more, Penny, in the face of everything we’ve ever been taught, right. It’s not our job to make them small versions of us. It is our job to support them, to figure out who they are and what their journey looks like. It took me a long time to get there. It took me a really long time to realize that.
0:12:29 – (Wendy): What a cool flip of the script. And as, like, someone who, on the day of recording, it’s like, mondy Thursday. And in my faith, it’s like, this faith that follows a man who was, like, so, like, countercultural to he the service was the whole thing. Like, supporting others was the whole thing. And in the world, it’s been flipped to be something totally different and heartbreaking and just infuriating, to be honest.
0:12:54 – (Wendy): But, like, I love that flipp of the script of, like, man, what if, what if we just looked at parenthood as, like, the ultimate service and support? And what’s so, what I love about that, Penny, is, is what I’ve realized is, like, it really is, like, a co, a co living or a co creation. And, yes, there are times when, like, like, I will say this over the years again. Ste Stillla is going toa be 17 in October.
0:13:24 – (Wendy): She has taught me just as much or more than I have taught her. So, really, when I look at my life, especially since she was born, I love that because that’s, like, you know, I say I talk about firm, kind leadership a lot, but, like, now I’m like, oh, dang, that’s a really cool way to flip the script because she has almost led me as much as I’ve led her. And it’s just a beautiful way to, like, look at the unexpected of parenthood, because when you have that approach that your mind’s gonna be blown with, like, what unfolds if you allow your child to be, like, in co creation with you and you’re supporting them almost as much as they’re supporting you. So I love that.
0:14:10 – (Penny): Yeah.
0:14:11 – (Wendy): Cool.
0:14:12 – (Penny): I try to think of it kind of as a sherpa. Like, I imagine that the Sherpa on, on a trek, they’re helping you carry the weight and your tools, they’re giving you the tools that you need when you need them. Right. And they’re there to totally support you on something that can be really challenging, but they’re not going to tell you what the journey looks like for you. They’re not going to lead you. You’re going to get the trackk that you want to take. Right.
0:14:39 – (Wendy): So, yeah, they’re a guide. You know, like, I just taught a workshop yesterday where I took, like, what I call the powerful, positive parenting journey and turned it into, like, the hero’s journey of, like, what it looks like, the steps and, like, the call to adventure and, like, the resistance that we have and, like, meeting the mentor and all these things. But, like, yeah, when you think about it, that story is really about, like, you meet the guide.
0:15:06 – (Wendy): Like, they might be guiding you, but you are, like, you are the ultimate hero. And it’s, like, the same with our kids. Like, they have these guides. They’re called parents, and. But yet they are really, like, we don’t need to help our kids become great people. Like, they already are great people. They’re just growing up, and, like, we’re there to guide them and maybe sometimes pivot their shoulders a little bit.
0:15:31 – (Wendy): But I love that analogy of the Sherpa, too, because you’re right. Like, a really great Sherpa doesn’t force people into a certain route. Like, it’s.
0:15:43 – (Penny): Yeah, I look at those people that do have boundaries. Like, I think it’s too important to say we’re not talking about, you know, stepping back and. And taking a backseat role and letting our kids guide us as, like, free range parenting.
0:15:58 – (Wendy): That’yes.
0:15:59 – (Penny): Y. What I’m saying is, yes, we teach them what they need to know. We hold boundaries, we keep them safe, but we let them guide what that looks like. And I think that’that’s where the key comes in. But I love the analogy of a hero’s journey. I truly believe that every human being has greatness within them, and we need to help them to let that shine, to discover it, and to let it shine, and to let it guide them.
0:16:30 – (Penny): And there are a lot of people in our society that we don’t do that for, and they never get to recognize their greatness. They never get to live a life through that. And that’s because we’re doing them a disservice when we look at their behavior in those really traditional ways where we put people in boxes and we decide their character based on that. Right.
0:16:56 – (Wendy): Yeah. It’s like, I always thought there was a. And I want. My next question is around, like, strong willed kids versus, like, adhd autism world. And I want to ask you a question about that. But thinking back to when we were trying to help Stella and just figuring out how to truly, unconditionally love this kid and enter in this life that we wanted with her, I remember she was. And it makes me think of, like, trying to make, like, a square peg fit in a round hole, right? And it’s just like.
0:17:27 – (Wendy): It’s infuriating, it’s frustrating, and it just will drive you insane. Right? And she was making. And she was making a Valentine’s thing. She was in kindergarten, and the task was. It was kind of a crazy task, if you ask me, but, like, hey, kid, here’s 24 names of kids in this classroom. You have to not only make Valentine’s, but you have to write their name on every single one of these Valentine, and then you have to make a box. Right? And so I remember, and. And they bring in their boxes with a little slit. Very traditional. This is the way we do it. And they put the Valentine in.
0:18:02 – (Wendy): And Stella was in this stage where, I mean, she is my strong willed. She has such an incredible vision, and she goes for what she wants. She always wants more. Like, she’s just. Is this force to be reckoned with? And back then, like, the behavioral stuff was just, like, who. We were still figuring it out. We had found the work about two years before she was in kindergarten. And so I’m watching her, and she and I used to buy her these books of paper that were big because she liked to make this big art, and she would make this heart in the middle of this big picture, and then she would rip out the big picture or the big piece of paper, and she would be like, sun, and it was like this little heart in the big, big draw, big piece of paper. And I’m like, honey, what? You’re actually supposed to do is make a small valentine because you have to give it to all these. It has to fit in the box. And she was just like, uhh. No, no, no, no, no. Standard, standard behavior for Stella.
0:19:01 – (Wendy): And finally she just said something. There’s been some pivotal things she said to me over the years that were like, again, groundbreaking to leadave me in a different direction. And she just looked at me in her frustration and was like, mom. ##e I think she might have said it’s. But I realized it was like, I it’s never gonna fit in the box. And I just remember, like, being stuck in my line, just being so profoundly moved to be like, you’re fraking, right?
0:19:30 – (Wendy): You know what? Go for it, dude. Make the big pictures. And so she walked in that kindergarten class with these obnoxiously large, completely waste full of paper giant valentines. And I just remember watching her give the kids these valentines and then being so confused becausee they looked at their box and they looked at this big Valentine and they were just like, well, this is odd. And then they just moved on with life, right? Like, it just wasn’t that big of a deal.
0:19:56 – (Wendy): But it was just one of those situations where I just got this little message that was like, we’re going to get you more comfortable with this kid. She’s unique. She’s not going to fit the mold. And that’s okay. We’re going to lean into that. We’re going to not force her to be something that she’s not. And she’s giving you the message. I’m giving you the message. Like, it was just a really, really cool moment.
0:20:19 – (Penny): Yeah. We really squelch creativity and authenticity by giving rules. Right? Like, what I hear in that example is, why in the world does every kid have to do it the same? Why in the world can she not show her heart in her own way on a day that is about loving others and kindness, right? And you know what? I guarantee you there’s at least one kid in that class who thought just felt more because she gave them more, right? It was bigger and they felt it.
0:21:02 – (Penny): And I, you know, my son’s kindergarten teacher would have freaked out about that, right? She would have probably prevented him from handing them out because it wasn’t what he was supposed to do, right? And why? Why does it matter? And that’s where I try to go with parents and educators, like, why does it matter if Stella’s valentine’fit in the box or not? It doesn’t because that doesn’t fulfill the goal of the exercise and the meaning of the day.
0:21:38 – (Penny): Right? We have to step back. We have to step back and say what really is a purpose here? And it’s okay if every kid fulfills that purpose in whatever way works for them.
0:21:50 – (Wendy): Yes. Amen to that. U so I have a question. We’re going to get into our behavior kind of three. Three. Three ways that we can see misbehavior in a new light. But first, before we head into that, I get so many parents, um, who are in that stage of life where they’re like, I don’t know, like, is my kidaur a diverse? Are they not? Could this be ADHD? Could this be autism spectrum? And then since I specialize in helping parents of strong willed kids, there is such this, like, similarity I see, especially in kids with ADHD, and then those who really just have this strong will about them. And, like, I see a lot of parents get really confused about, like, is this something that I should go get a diagnosis for?
0:22:41 – (Wendy): Or is this, like, does this line up with what wendy talks about of, like, this strong willed child that is just ticks all the boxes? So, Penny, what can you shed light on that as far as, like, if a parent is, you know, when they look at all the boxes, they’re like, yep. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. But then when I present, like, the strong willed kid, too, they’re like, tick, tick, tick. What would you say to someone who is trying to figure out, is this something where I’m, like, working with a beautiful neurodiverse brain, or is this this, like, very strong willed personality that is happening here?
0:23:16 – (Penny): It’s really tough. It’s really tough to tease those things apart sometimes. And I think that, you know, it really comes down to what we’re going to talk about with behavior because science is leading us to this understanding of behavior that is for everyone, not just neurodivergent individuals. And so everything I teach parents and educators of neurodivergent kids is true for all children. And we see strong willed personalities come out when we don’t quite understand what the behavior is signaling and where that behavior is coming from. Right. That strong will to approach labels are necessary and also not necessary, which’just going to drive your listeners bonkers that I just said that.
0:24:08 – (Penny): But, you know, you don’t have have a label to change your approach for the kid that you have. But the label can help you really understand that kid, and it can open doors for services and other things both at school and in the medical and mental health world. Right? So sometimes it’s really helpful. And I do think for kids who are struggling and feel like they don’t fit, if there is a label, you know, some sort of cluster of symptoms that has a name for it that we can provide, it can help them to not fill in that blank with, I’m bad, I’m broken, I don’t measure up because in the absence of reason, it’s human nature to fill in that blank, and we’re going to blame ourselves.
0:25:08 – (Penny): And so when we can give that reason as to why you’re feeling like you don’t fit, you don’t measure up, you’re having a harder time than you think the kids around you are having, then that provides a reason that isn’t about them not measuring up. So, you know, I’m all about people doing what works for them. If you’re super anti label and you can look at the behaviors and you can help where your kid is struggling, and you can also focus on strengths, great.
0:25:43 – (Penny): But sometimes they really do open doors and help people understand your kid. You know, we had a really hard time getting that autism spectrum diagnosis. We had three evaluations. The first two said, n, you know, he looks me in the eye, he will have a two way conversation. It can’t be that, right? And we found somebody who really specialized in kind of that hiding in plain sight autism. And it was clearly there, right. And I kept going down that path and pushing that because I thought it would help school educators, administrators understand my kid better.
0:26:27 – (Penny): It actually really didn’t. We so really struggled because he’s twice exceptional and he’s very verbally fluent, so he’s highly intelligent, very verbally fluent. So teachers are like, well, you can tell me what, you know, why can’t you show it in an essay? Or, you know, and so we still struggled all the way through with that. But, you know, sometimes those labels will open doors. Sometimes those labels will just let others in your kids life have that light bulb moment where they get it and they can show up in the way that your kid needs them to.
0:27:02 – (Penny): So I’m always pro figuring it out, right? But not everyone is. And, you know, it’s really personal decision. It’s up to each parent to figure that out. I will also add, I used to moderate the adult ADHD forum for Attitude magazine for a long time, and there were countless, countless posts from adults who said, I just wish my parents would have done something. I wish my parents would have taken me to get an evaluation.
0:27:36 – (Penny): I wish, you know, I had known I had ADHD earlier. I wouldn’t have been so hard on myself. Right. There were many also whose parents did know and never told them until they were an adult. Yes. Because they didn’t want it to cloud their sense of self. Right. For we always have great intentions around these decisions. But they also would say, oh, my gosh, if I had only known. And it breaks down that adult relationship now.
0:28:10 – (Penny): You know, the kid who is an adult now is really mad at the parent and feels like, in some ways, they, they ruin their life. Right. And so, you know, that perspective from adults is really important, too, because it helps us understand that it isn’t all bad if you are neurodivergent and you get a label for it. There are lots of positives to that, as well.
0:28:33 – (Wendy): Yeah. And it’s so tricky when they’re young, because, again, like, I I just see so much of it as, like, kind of. That’s a kind of an odd word to use. Let’s just say it for now. The normal behavior for a strong willed kinesthetic, like, sensory, like differences kid. Right. Seeking kid. And then it’s like this, like, I see between the ages of, like, three and eight, it seems like it’s so confusing because it’s like, do we push forward? Do we not? But it feels like what I’ve.
0:29:09 – (Wendy): Tell me if this is accurate, Penny. The big difference is if, like, there is a lot of struggling, maybe in the school system is that one way you can kind of, like, tip the scale a little bit of, like. Cause, for example, for Stella, well, I will say that in kindergarten and first grade, it was like us learning to buck up against the system. So we saw the documentary race to nowhere, and we realized, holy smokes, we don’t want to buy into the system of the standardized testing and all the things. Like, we just want her to be happy and healthy in tre, healthy meals. All the things. So we were like, we’re notnna even finish homework packets in kindergarten. This was before our district. Like, now they don’t give kids homework till the fourth grade, thank God.
0:29:51 – (Wendy): And they’re, like, really, like, smart here in Southern California because they’re up with the times. But back then, it was like we were learning to buck up against the system. And I remember the teacher was like, uh oh, she’s in the 63rd percentile for reading. We need more flashcards at night. We need, you know, you’re not finishing the packets. This is a problem. Like, all these things. So in our head, it’s like, it was starting to be like, oh, she’s air quote, struggling in school, but because of the race to nowhere documentary, we were like, no, this is just a system that’s inaccurate. Right. And so we were just like, she’ll be fine.
0:30:25 – (Wendy): We trust it’ll come in her own time. And then by the time the end of first grade came, she was just thriving and, like, over killing it with reading. Right. But I think it gets a little confusing. Cause there’s times when they’re really young that the system can tell you that they’re failing or that they’re not meeting up to par. But is that one way to kind of look at. Could this be something more than just my kid having an incredible strong will? Is if there’s problems performing in the.
0:30:55 – (Penny): School, it’s indicative that our system is built on conformity, and then it doesn’t work for everyone.
0:31:05 – (Wendy): Yeah.
0:31:06 – (Penny): That’s really what it is. It’s a signal that our system for education is broken, basically. Right. Because your kid wasn’t unable to read. Right. And throwing more at her was probably going to make things worse instead of better. And you knew, thank goodness, that more was not the solution. But when we talk about traditional education, that’s the solution. Always, like, you know, oh, well, if it’s only 60 percentile, then we’ve got to keep pushing harder and harder and we’ve got to get there.
0:31:46 – (Penny): The other thing, too, I think, and this is something we’ve seen over the years as well, is incompatibility sometimes with teachers or great compatibility with other teachers. My son, when he entered first grade, was behind in everything. Everything. He was not reading. A lot of other kids were reading. His handwriting was just atrocious. His spelling was atrocious. He was not doing great with written math.
0:32:18 – (Penny): It was just all. He was way, way, way behind. And he. So he got the diagnosis of ADHD end dysgraphia that November, and by the following, like, march, he was on grade level for everything except writing, because dysgraphia. And he had the most amazing teacher, I call her misses marvelous in my book, boy without instructions, because she turned things around him. And it was that compatibility, it was her approach that every kid learns differently. She knew this. She was a very young teacher at the time, and so she really had a lot of progressive thoughts about teaching.
0:33:07 – (Penny): She was full into differentiated instruction. Right. And so she didn’t see behavior as a behavioral challenge. She saw it as signals. Even back then. She saw it as, okay, this kid just needs something different from me, this kidneys, to learn it in a different way. And between diagnosis and some medication, and the right teacher and us understanding better, things started to fall into place. Right. So, yes, if the school is saying your kid is really behind, that could be a signal of something as far as, like a neurodivergence or a learning disability, which is also neurodivergence.
0:33:51 – (Penny): Or it could be that socially they’re having a hard time. Mentally they’re having a hard time. Right. Could be anxiety, depression. It could be just a slew of things. And we really have to be able to sort of step back and say, okay, maybe it’s something that we need a diagnosis for. We need to really dig into and get focused on. Maybe it’s just indicative of where we are right now, and it’s a signal of something entirely different and that’s for us to sort of dive into.
0:34:27 – (Wendy): Yeah, I love, I love how you’re just like, there is no one answer, right. And that is parenthood. And I so connect with. And because I’m not an ADHD and neurodivergent specialist, you know, it’s like I’ve always kind of like, is that, like, is this accurate? Because people will ask me, hey, does your, is your work great for a neurod divivergin families? And I always say, absolutely, because in my opinion, and I’m so, this is just great to hear to your kind of confirmation of this. But it’s like, it all is human dignity work. And all humans respond to human dignity. They respond to connection, they respond to firm, kind boundaries. They respond to leading with dignity and integrity and empowerment. Like, it’s just, that’s human, human dignity. But a little part of my brain was always like, is there something, like, so different?
0:35:24 – (Wendy): And what scares me is like, over the years, I’ve seen the kids that are neurodivergent at elementary school and we have, like, such ahead of the times elementary school, Southern California, like, emotional literacy specialist. And I still see the kids being dealt with in a way that seems so unkind and of disintegrity to me. And I’m like, what is happening there? And so, you know, part of me always worried that, like, I don’t know, something happens, that there’s, there’s this thought that you have to, you have to work with these kids in this way that brings in the external threats, bribery, rewards, intimidation, like forcing into submission.
0:36:05 – (Wendy): And I’ve just, my heart radar has always been like, something is really off there. And so it’s great to hear you say, like, this is, it’s all, it’s behavioral redirection. It’s connection work like, it’s the same for all human beings. And yes, I know that you do so much to, like, help families in the neurodivergent world with, like, unique things. But in general, it’s really like, when you are willing to do that work as a parent to change your model and to lead with connection, then you can count and bank on the investment in learning a new way. And working with your children is going to air quotes work to, like, bring more peace in the home.
0:36:52 – (Penny): So connection over. Correction. Yep.
0:36:57 – (Wendy): Heck, yes, Penny. Okay, we are, like, 45 minutes in. We haven’t even gotten to our takeaways. But we’ve been talking about all of them. But let’s touch on them. We’ll go through them real quick. So number one takeaway if we wanna see misbehavior in a new light is that biology and behavior are intertwined. Behavior isn’t good or bad. It’s regulated or dysregulated. Riff for me for a second on that. Penny, please.
0:37:20 – (Penny): Yeah. We are taught that behavior is either good or bad. We are taught that emotions are either good or bad. Right.
0:37:29 – (Wendy): Positive or negative. Yeah.
0:37:31 – (Penny): Yes. It’s just not true. Because so much behavior is driven by our bodies and our nervous system. The way that we are wired, it’s instinctual. If you think about in caveman days, we had to be really hyper alert because there might be a tiger lurking behind us. Right. And we needed to have a very quick physical reaction to stay safe. We are still wired that way. And some people have a very sensitive nervous system that gets triggered constantly. Like, there’s a tiger there and there’s not.
0:38:14 – (Penny): And so we have to understand where the body comes into it to understand intention. So much of a kid’s behavior isn’t intentional. They’re not trying to hurt you. If my kid yelled at me, and this happened many, many times when he was little. You’re the worst mom ever. You never loved me. I hate you. That wasn’t intended to hurt me. It just came out. Right. Because he didn’t have the skills to handle the situation, the frustration, the environment, the sensory overwhelm, whatever it was in that scenario, he didn’t have the skills to manage it in a different way.
0:39:01 – (Penny): He felt unsafe. His body felt unsafe, and his body started reacting. When we understand behavior from that viewpoint as safe or unsafe, it’s no longer good or bad. It just is. It’s a neutral thing that has happened. We attach to it whether we decide that it’s positive or negative, good or bad. Right. We get to choose that. And that choice is super, super important. So what I’ve learned from science is that we are either regulated or dysregulated.
0:39:37 – (Penny): When we are regulated, we feel connected, our system feels calm, we feel good in our body, and things feel doable. When we are dysregulated, all of that goes out the window because our nervous system is taken over, and it’s just trying to keep us safe. Things aren’t as doable. Literally. The emotional brain and survival brains are taking over, and they cut off physical access to the thinking brain.
0:40:08 – (Penny): There is no logic. There is no reasoning. There is no right. It’s just instinctual behavior. We can apply this to every human being in every situation, even our criminal system. You know, I call traditional parenting crime and punishment, and that’s the same for our traditional society. Everything is or bad. It’s a crime that gets punished or, you know, you fit. You did what was expected of the masses, right? There’s no individuality in that system, and there’s no understanding human beings and human nature in that system.
0:40:49 – (Penny): And, you know, I hope we change it for a million years about it. It all means to change.
0:40:58 – (Wendy): Sometimes as educators, it feels like you’re, like, screaming into a void, you know, like no one’s listening. But we know that people are right, like we are. Every time we have conversations like this, you know, one more person just gets the. The message that they don’t have to, like, conform to that system, so to speak. But I love the idea of looking at it instead of good or bad. And this is, like, where we start off with all of our students, most of us, as coaches and educators do, right? It’s, like, really changing your paradigm. And I love the idea of tying it to the nervous system of safe or regulator or dysregulated. I’ve been doing so much nervous system healing and regulation work with myself over the last six months, actually, with financial healing. Penny, it’s been so. Such a fun new land to go down that I’m. And, like, oh, dang, I’ve got a lot of nervous system jacked up stuff over here. And it’s been really fun to, like, learn more about it through that lens, but it relates to everything, right? So it’s like seeing it as safe or unsafe and knowing that our bodies and our minds are designed to keep us safe and alive.
0:42:02 – (Wendy): And it makes me think, too, of, like, we have this kind of instinctual thing to keep us alive. And then we also have the cultural conditioning that comes so fast that you are unsafe if you are feeling an emotion, right? So your example of the kiddo who screamed at you, I hate you, or kicked or hit or whatever, like, oftentimes I’ll see that as, like, a child who is feeling hurt. Maybe we stuck to a boundary or used a tone that wasn’t so great, or they were like, feeling like life was unfair, right? Like, all the kids on the block have video games at the age of six, and I don’t or something.
0:42:36 – (Wendy): But, like, that can be a feeling of hurt. But yet we’re trained. Like, culture gets to us so young, and many of us like, and then add on the fact that many of us don’t learn this work and how to handle misbehavior differently. So we, like, almost are teaching the kids from a very young age that there is danger when there is conflict. But I look at it, and I’m like, yeah, it feels really unsafe when you feel hurt. And it feels like this very fast. I must fix this. I was teaching that same kindergarten class of Stella back when she was five.
0:43:10 – (Wendy): And I came in, it was like I had just become certified, and I came in to teach about. We were gonna make stop signs of, like, we’re gonna talk about what to do when someone does something that you don’t like. Like, that is either unkind or, like, how can you react? That stays in touch, like, with who you are, right? And this little girl raises her hand. She’the cutest little twin, blonde little girl.
0:43:34 – (Wendy): She raises her hand right away, and she’s like, I know, I know, I know, I know. And she’s like, wendy, it’s like when someone says, your shoes are ugly, you look them right in the face, and you say, well, your face is ugly. And I was just like, wow, thank you, Caroline. I was like, I’m going toa teach you how to do it differently today. But that’s a great example of when someone does something that doesn’t feel good to you, right? But it was such a great example, Penny, of how fast the nervous system gets conditioned that there is danger. If you feel hurt, there is danger, and you better lay that smack down fast. And so in my worker, I always teach, it’s like a mistaken belief that when I feel hurt, I must hurt back often, because that’s what’s been modeled to me.
0:44:21 – (Wendy): And so it’s like this cr wild combination between just the survival brain and then the conditioning, and all of a sudden, we’re just. It feels like a fore alarm fire for our child and for ourselves. And so I love that idea of just pulling back and just realizing it’s. They’re either regulated or dysregulated, and so are we. And it’s just, it’s just facts.
0:44:44 – (Penny): It’s just like, just is.
0:44:46 – (Wendy): Boy, is that a journey just to.
0:44:48 – (Penny): See it like that? Righteah. And the safety piece is so, so, so important. It was really revolutionary for me as a parent to understand that safety is more than just physical danger. Right? Parents will say all the time, my kid is safe, I provide a safe home, right? They have a roof over their head, they have food to eat. We’re talking about psychological safety. Do they feel mentally safe, emotionally safe, socially safe, sensory safe?
0:45:21 – (Penny): There’s so many other areas of safety that we don’t talk about at all. You know, it’s bad enough that we don’t talk about half of the emotions that we all have, but we never talk about safety other than being in physical danger. And truly, every moment of every day, we either feel safe or unsafe, and our body is reacting to that. And so that kid who says, well, if you hurt me, I’m goingna hurt back, they don’t feel safe when you are hurting them, and they feel like they’re protecting themselves if they hurt back.
0:46:04 – (Penny): When you think about it like that, it makes total sense. It’s still not okay. We’re not excusing the behavior, saying, well, I don’t like your face. We’re just understanding it. And from that understanding, we can make so much more change. But we also make kids feel seen, heard, and understood. And that really resonated for me. When you were talking about treating people with dignity, I was like, oh, my gosh, that is my thing with that. We all need to feel seen, heard, and understood.
0:46:36 – (Penny): That’s how we feel safe. When we feel like people aren’t listening, we don’t feel safe. We feel like people are not seeing who we really are, that we’re not able to be authentic, we don’t feel safe. And when we feel like people don’t get us, we definitely, surely all kinds of don’t feel safe. Right? And I love that you use the word dignity. It really encompasses that thing. And that I’m always saying, like, well, you know, if you’re having challenging behavior, your kid doesn’t feel seen, heard, or understood, or all of it.
0:47:15 – (Penny): Or if you’re feeling bad, it’s because you’re not feeling seen, heart, or understood, because this is a human thing, not a neurodivergent thing.
0:47:24 – (Wendy): Yeah, it’s so true. And then you add on again, like, the traditional hand me down parenting tactics that we all get because we don’t realize that we actually really would benefit from, like, learning or education. Like, our society is just not like, you go to have a baby and they’re like, you’re going toa need breastfeeding classes, birth classes, but literally no one mentions, like, you should probably take some education classes about the psychology of your child’s brain and how to redirect misbehavior.
0:47:51 – (Penny): And so how to raise a kid.
0:47:53 – (Wendy): Yeah, of course we use the hand me down tactics, but the disappointment model. So, like, in my world, I have so many people healing from, like, religious trauma in, like, very unhealthy christian circles. And so, yes, on. So there’s the emotional side, but. And then there really is a physical, like, been passed down generation upon generation of, like, literally, punishment, hurt, harm, humiliation being used on children if you make a mistake. So not only is it in, like, the last lineage or, like, the first five years of a parent’s history with their child, but it’s also in their cells. Like, literally the trauma that’s been passed down from that. So it’s wild how that gets added in. But then even when parents I find that are healing from that or trying to do it differently, I feel like sometimes we’ll swing into the disappointment model, which is then, like, well, I am gonna pull back from that side of, like, intense punishment.
0:48:50 – (Wendy): But then just, like, it almost feels safer, but it’s still almost the same effect on a child when it’s, like, their misbehavior equals this, like, intense. I’m just so disappointed in you. And that it just made me think when you were talking about the safety, it’s like, dude, there are some kids that. That. I mean, I would say most humans, but there are some kids, like, in my house growing up, I had the physical side of punishment and literal lack of safety, but I also had the classic statement was shame on you.
0:49:23 – (Penny): Yeah.
0:49:24 – (Wendy): What were you thinking? You know, better. And it was just, like, the worst feeling ever. And so as I got older, it was like, man, I got really good at hiding my misbehavior. Like, I mean, my parents still this in no idea what I did as a teenager because I was so freaking, because it was so, so unsafe to be imperfect that I just learned really well how to hide it. So, again, just more like unsafety. But I think it just helps me so much to look at it from the lens of safe and unsafe and realize that it’ll help us remove the judgment so that’s our second point, and we’ve really touched on that. Penny.
0:50:01 – (Wendy): Remove judgment from behavior. We’re able to see that the kid is having a hard time not being bad. But let’s, like, let’s move into the third one here. When we see behavior simply as a signal, we’re able to address the root of the problem and meaningful, lasting change. Riff on that just to end us off here.
0:50:21 – (Penny): Yeah. You know, this goes back to sort of the crime and punishment approach to parenting. We punish to make it so painful or so uncomfortable that the kid will remember it the next time they’re in the same situation, and they will choose to not have the same behavior. Right, out of fear, out of discomfort, whatever it is. And that does not address in any way, shape or form why that thing happened. Why.
0:51:01 – (Penny): Why was my kid screaming at me in the grocery store that I never loved him and I’m the worst mom in the world? Well, in that scenario, he’s in entitled brat, because. No, but all the people staring at me, that’s what they were thinking. Believe. But, yeah, that’s where we go. That’s that judgment. We judge people’s character based on their actions without looking any deeper at the action. But there’s so much meaning going on underneath. There’s so many signals that are trying to get out.
0:51:35 – (Penny): And so in that case, in the store with my kid, he, you know, he wanted a third sugary cereal, and I said, no, next week we’ll get that kind. This week we’re only getting these two, right. He couldn’t handle it because he didn’t have the skills. He didn’t have the maturity. He was in an overwhelming sensory environment. And he has a neurodivergen brain and nervous system. Right? And there was all.
0:52:05 – (Wendy): He was probably thinking, life is unfair, too, because the neighbors have all the ceial life.
0:52:10 – (Penny): Unfair. There’s all these cereals. Why can’t I have them all? They’re right here in front of my face. All you have to do is reach up and get the box and stick it in the cart. That’s it. Why can’t you do that for me, mom’you?
0:52:22 – (Wendy): Would feel hurt about that when you’re little and you don’t understand how life works yet. Yeah.
0:52:27 – (Penny): Y yes. And so if I say, oh, I have a bad, spoiled kid, what have I done to prevent that in the future? Nothing.
0:52:36 – (Wendy): Right.
0:52:37 – (Penny): Nothing. Especially with a clinically impulsive kid who can’t stop and think before acting. Righteah, not going to make any difference, no matter how big the punishment. Is not going to change that situation. What will change that situation is if I start helping him to build frustration tolerance, if I start to set expectations before I go into the store, if I start to put myself in his shoes and understand his emotions, if I maybe just don’t take him to the store at that time of day, which is what I learned to do when he was six.
0:53:09 – (Penny): We did not go to the store after school because we just couldn’t. And I had to get okay with that. Right. I was like, no, you know, I’m.
0:53:18 – (Wendy): Right here by the store, parenting right there.
0:53:20 – (Penny): This is efficient. I need to, you know, you need to learn how to be able to go to the grocery store. Not right there didn’t. No. Right. And later on we did learn that and we practiced it more. But the only way to change behavior truly is to address why it happens. What is the underlying cause? Doctor Ross Green, who is the author of raising human Beings who completely changed my life and my parenting and my kids life through that, says that kids do well if they can.
0:54:01 – (Penny): He also says that behavior is like the fever when your kid has, you know, an ear infection. Right. It’s just a symptom. If you can give Tylenol for a fever, you can bring the fever down, but if you don’t address the bacteria, the illness, the infection. Right. With that type of medicine, what’s going to happen to the fever after the Tylenol wears off? It’s just going toa come right back. Right?
0:54:35 – (Wendy): Yeah.
0:54:36 – (Penny): So you’renna go on this cycle of, oh, I’m gonna make it better for a minute, but then it’s going to come back because I didn’t address why that thing was happening that, I mean, so true.
0:54:48 – (Wendy): And teach the life skill.
0:54:49 – (Penny): Par.
0:54:50 – (Wendy): And teach the life skill, you know?
0:54:52 – (Penny): Yeah, yeah. Kids do well if they can. If they can’t do well, if they’re not doing well at something, it is a signal that we need to be looking deeper and helping them to gain the skills, to gain the emotional regulation to, you know, whatever it might be in order to be able to succeed in, in that environment, in that situation.
0:55:17 – (Wendy): So beautiful. Had Instagram post two days ago that was called five signs your child’s misbehavior is a symptom, not the problem. And it was actually what I riffed on in that post was, you’re right. Like, we spend so much time talking about the symptom of, like, what’s going on for the child. Right. But like, it’s also often a symptom of like, what’s going on for us, that’s actually the problem. Like the call to healing, right? Like, we never had safety as a kid, or we wanted grace and compassion so much when we were young, but we didn’t get it. So we had this neural pathway pave that it’s, it’s like. And then you become a parent, you meet people like you and I, and we’re like, offer compassion to your child and it’s like, I donh. No, that doesn’t feel safe. Like, I was never offered that. It’s wrong to, like, allow a child, right? Like, it feels like it’s this permissive thing. So it was cool to see people, like, really respond to that post. We’ll make sure we put it in the show notes because, yeah, just the idea that it is symptoms, it’s like’s kids are gonna make mistakes, they’re gonna have misbehavior. You have a postpnny that I loved.
0:56:23 – (Wendy): It says radical acceptance, radical empathy, radical compassion. This is where the magic is. And I think that just so sums up and represents, like, your approach with all kids, but especially these beautiful, neurodivergent kids and the families you serve. Thank you for doing the work that you do. And all human beings, yeah, even the ones we disagree with.
0:56:47 – (Penny): Human beings, criminals. That’s where we people who are mean to you and others, everybody, we need to stop judging and have radical acceptance and compassion, because then we can see where they are and who they are and why that’s happening.
0:57:05 – (Wendy): And, man, and if you want to talk about teaching kids and affecting behavior, isn’t that the way to go? Right? And all of us going into an election year is an election this November? Is the election this November. Oh, man. I mean, it is an intense calling that if we want to, like, have, have our children, like, holy smokes, we gotta step up. And I’m like, I can do this. I can do this. Like, that’s just another example where we.
0:57:31 – (Penny): Are really hard to mod skills sometimes.
0:57:34 – (Wendy): It is really hard to model in this type of year, especially when, like, my nervous system feels, like, terrified.
0:57:41 – (Penny): I’m just like, oh, yes.
0:57:43 – (Wendy): So, man, we’re doing the work. And isn’t that the essence of our conversation is, like, we are learning. This is what I believe so much of. Like, we’re often learning the same exact life skill that our kids are learning. They’re just presenting it in a different way. But so much of the time, it’s like one that we honestly haven’t perfected yet. So when we answer the calling to kind of go together to do it. It’s so much more enjoyable. And you start to not feel like they’re the problem, but instead, like, together.
0:58:10 – (Wendy): It’s an invitation to learn a life skill, which learning to have more empathy and compassion with people is definitely life skill. That doesn’t always come naturally, especially with people you disagree with. Sonn oh, my goodness. Again, thank you for being here today. Will you let listeners know where they can come find you and your incredible work that you do in the world?
0:58:32 – (Penny): Absolutely. ParentingADHDautism.com is the easiest way to find all of the crazy things that I’m into these days. There’s so many things. The beautifully complex podcast, of course, is on any podcasting app. Wherever they’re listening to this, they can probably listen to that also. But everything, social media included, is linked up there @parentingadhdautism.com.
0:58:56 – (Wendy): Do amazing Penny and listeners, of course, we will make sure we put all of that in the show notes for you so you can click easily to go find Penny and support her work. Thanks again for being here. Penny, we are so grateful for you.
0:59:10 – (Penny): Thank you. And thank you for the work that you’re doing. It’s so great to be a helper in the world, right?
0:59:17 – (Wendy): It really is a def find like minded people, and these conversations just light me up. So I’m leaving this conversation with a fuller heart. So thanks, Penny.
0:59:26 – (Penny): Oh, thank you.
