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What happens when your faith starts to shiftโbut you’re also raising kids who are looking to you for spiritual guidance? In this heartfelt and hope-filled episode of The Fresh Start Family Show, Wendy sits down with author Erin Hicks Moon to talk about what it means to live with questions, explore evolving beliefs, and still model a deeply meaningful spiritual life for your family.
Erin shares the story behind her powerful book Iโve Got Questions, reflecting on how her upbringing in a Southern Baptist community shaped her early faithโand how curiosity, honesty, and community have shaped it since. Together, she and Wendy unpack what it means to deconstruct without despair and how to give your children the gift of spiritual openness, compassion, and integrity.
Whether youโre just starting to ask hard questions or you’ve been on a journey of faith evolution for years, this conversation will leave you feeling seen, supported, and inspired. Because faith doesnโt have to be perfect to be powerfulโand you donโt have to have it all figured out to lead your family well.
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Episode Highlights:
- Erin emphasizes the importance of a continuous exploration of faith, urging believers to remain open to questions and doubts as a part of their spiritual growth.
- The discussion highlights the individualized nature of faith and encourages parents to model an evolving spiritual journey to their children.
- Navigating faith amidst cultural and religious influences requires a compassionate approach that eschews rigidity in favor of inclusivity and understanding.
- Erin and Wendy advocate for a faith practice rooted in respect and humanity, urging listeners to evaluate religious teachings through a lens that values dignity for all individuals.
- The importance of community and the richness of diverse perspectives within spiritual practices are underscored in their conversation.
Resources Mentioned:
Check out her website
Grab a copy of her book, I’ve Got Questions: The Spiritual Practice of Having it Out with God
Catch this full episode on YouTube!
Unable to listen or prefer to read along? Here’s the transcript!
0:00:00 Wendy: Welcome to a new episode. Iโm so happy youโre here today. I am with Erin Hicks Moon. Welcome to the show. Erin. Weโre so happy to have you here.
0:00:12 Erin: Thank you so much, Wendy. Iโm excited to be here.
0:00:15 Wendy: Yes. Well, today, families, we are talking about faith in flux, navigating spiritual shifts and guiding kids at the same time. And Erin, just recently finished your book. Oh my gosh. What? I will tell you that it feels like such an honor to interview and spend time with you for the next hour because this is a incredible read. Congratulations on this book. I know you poured your heart into this.
0:00:39 Erin: Thank you so much, Wendy. Thatโs really kind. Thank you. That, that means a lot to me. Thank you.
0:00:44 Wendy: Yeah, I was hustling to get it finished. Iโm such a slow reader. My, my little rhythm is like, I read every night before bed and I, I sometimes make it like three pages.
0:00:55 Erin: Oh yeah.
0:00:56 Wendy: It puts me perfectly to sleep. And I have a dream that one day Iโm going to be like the book in the purse. And like while Iโm waiting for a coffee or gas, I read instead of checking email. But never going to be me.
0:01:10 Erin: I want it to be me. Thatโs inspirational for me, but itโs never going to be me.
0:01:15 Wendy: Yeah, the bedtime is my sweet spot. But I, man, I really do get so tired. So it takes me a while. But I was hustling to finish this one and I was just loving it. And Erin, and your humor that you bring into this conversation as those of us who are amidst an evolving faith or some people may associate more with deconstruction or reconstruction, rebuilding faith, whatever it may be, it can feel so heavy and intense at times and you bring in a light heartedness and a relatability that is just so refreshing. And it feels like youโre just talking to a normal person.
0:01:53 Erin: Well, that is what it is. So Iโm glad because there is absolutely. Yeah, thatโs. I think, I think we take it like, because it feels so serious and it is like your faith is like a big part of your life. Itโs a, you know, itโs a huge chunk of your life. And I feel like when we, but we take it so seriously, we end up taking ourselves seriously in it. And I just want to go, hey, we can shake some of that off. Like weโre, we are fumbling around in the dark about a lot of this. And so letโs just, letโs just not be so wrapped up in ourselves about it. Letโs get you know, letโs just add a little levity, I think.
0:02:30 Wendy: Yes. Well, it really helps and good.
0:02:32 Erin: Iโm glad.
0:02:32 Wendy: Sarah Bessie, write your, your forward.
0:02:35 Erin: When the, when the. I am still unwell. Sarah has been just, I mean, it was a spiritual mother to me from afar for so long. I mean, I remember reading Jesus Feminist on the floor of Dallas Fort Worth airport on my Kindle like forever ago. And I mean I read, I had a layover and I read it in the span of that layover and it complete. It just started so much for me and it kind of kicked off so much for me and I just. When she said yes, I was like, Iโm fine. This fine, like Iโm super chill and.
0:03:11 Wendy: Iโm not gonna make a big deal.
0:03:12 Erin: Out of this, but I secretly, and not so secretly made a giant deal about it because she is amazing.
0:03:17 Wendy: Absolutely. Yeah. And now you get to be someone who is also pivotal in this journey for people. So, so important. And we all have those books that just really hit us and help us in the best ways. So. I know I, Iโm just about to write my first book this spring. Oh my gosh.
0:03:39 Erin: Congratulations.
0:03:40 Wendy: Thank you, thank you.
0:03:41 Erin: Amazing.
0:03:42 Wendy: Itโs going to be so fun. Iโm so excited. But I know itโs just going to be a lot that goes into it emotionally and work wise. Even so I know that this took a lot. So congratulations. Weโre happy. Weโre so. Itโs out in the world. Iโve got questions. The spiritual practice of having it out with God. But start us off this conversation. When it comes to our faith, kind of feeling like itโs in flux and how we can like navigate these seasons of shift while also raising human souls.
0:04:11 Wendy: But talk to us about kind of. Well, weโll start us off with just your story. I would love that, Erin, to hear a little bit more about how you, how you got here and you know, just an introduction of the book and as you were writing it, what called you to write it and give us just a little overview. How many kids you got, all that good stuff.
0:04:31 Erin: Yeah. So Iโve got three kids. I have a 7 year old, an 11 year old and a 15 year old. Theyโre at all three at different schools. So pick up and drop off is an absolute nightmare. But we are about to have a driver, so thatโs going to help a lot. Oh good. Yeah. So really excited about that. Other than the teaching process of how to drive, thatโs. That has been a situation.
0:04:52 Wendy: Oh yeah.
0:04:53 Erin: I mean the whole thing. But I grew up in the Texas Panhandle. I grew up just a little cucumber pickled in the Southern Baptist brine. I had, you know, I know this now, that the experience that I had in the Southern Baptist Church was very different from a lot of people. I had a lovely experience. I had a wonderful church home and was very close with our pastor and his wife. We were. My brother and I were their practice grandkids.
0:05:23 Erin: And so we had. It was. It was just such an environment of warmth. And, you know, of course there were imperfect things that happened. But Iโve realized now, hearing so many stories of people, that that was not everyoneโs experience. So Iโm really grateful for just the environment that I grew up in. But I had a wonderful. I have a wonderful family. I have one brother and two parents. And it was a. It was a great core four. We had. We had a great time. And I moved to Alabama like 20 years ago, I think, and it was.
0:06:05 Erin: I moved for a boy. Let me just be very clear. I moved to, like, put my pheromones out and maybe this boy would fall in love with me. And it worked. God said yes. And we are still married today. Yeah. And so I worked for a lot of parachurch ministries. Iโve worked in, like, church event production, student camps. Iโve written and edited Bible studies for almost 20 years. So I have. And then now I work for the Podcast Media Group where I am a co host on the Faith Adjacent podcast. And I am an annoying background presence on the podcast and that I never watch anything. I have no pop culture knowledge whatsoever unless itโs about decoms. I do have a. I am the resident DCOM expert, the Disney Channel original movie expert on the podcast. Because those two, they donโt. Theyโre not as invested as I am.
0:07:05 Erin: And so. But yeah, itโs. Itโs a really fun job. I get to study the Bible and chat with people and talk about, you know, the Ark of the Covenant and Esther being historical fiction and, you know, all of these fun things for my job. So itโs a really good time. And then the reason that I wrote Iโve Got Questions is through this work that I do on the Internet, which is so fun and so incredible. I have just met so many people.
0:07:35 Erin: So many. Iโve heard so many stories of people who were in this space, particularly post 2016, they were in this space of. I have a lot of questions about my faith, about God, about Jesus, about scripture, and I do not know how to walk through all of them. It feels. It. So many people like. It just felt like they had a necklace that was enormously tangled, and more than anything, they wanted to wear it again, but it would take time for them to sit down and pick out those knots and really be thoughtful about it.
0:08:13 Erin: And so what I wanted to do was kind of create a space to say, not a, you know, deconstruct your faith in six weeks course, because thatโs not great, but just, like, space and a framework and someone. I really wanted a guide. I wanted someone, a friend to hold their hand while I walked through all of my questions, all of my doubts. And. And so what I did was I just kind of created this framework based off of how I walked through my own particular season of deconstruction and so offered it to my newsletter subscribers. We did it a couple of times in beta, and then.
0:08:53 Erin: Then it became this. It became Iโve got questions. So itโs. Itโs been a really fun experience to see it kind of the germination process. And now that itโs finally here and out in the world, itโs very weird.
0:09:07 Wendy: Oh, itโs so wild. Yeah. I. I love your story because it feels. I know it sounds like there was these moments of tension, and we can talk about that, you know, exploring the tension between faith and cultural influences and this. This journey that we go through when we step into, like, an evolving faith. Jo. But it sounds like it was very healthy for you. And there, you know, so I think so many people, thereโs.
0:09:34 Wendy: It. Thereโs these seasons where, like, stuff happens that, like, rocks your world. And I guess Iโm speaking from my own experience here. So in. In my world, so the parents I help, you know, so many of them come from, I would. I would say straight up, like a religious trauma background. So many.
0:09:52 Erin: Absolutely.
0:09:53 Wendy: Yeah. Who were raised in. In the fear and force environment. Instant obedience, air quotes, godly discipline.
0:10:01 Erin: Yes.
0:10:01 Wendy: Hurting and harming children in the name of God.
0:10:04 Erin: Absolutely.
0:10:04 Wendy: And it is just heartbreaking what it does to human souls. And. And then they grow up and they realize, like, oh, my gosh, I just really donโt want to repeat this. And I donโt believe the things that are still being taught from the pulpit at my church or that thereโs still books on the shelf at, like, the church Iโm going to or within Bible studies or whatever it may be, articles that get shared. And so that is where a lot of our students start with the evolving faith process.
0:10:32 Wendy: And theyโre like, okay, this feels off to me. And that was My story too, right? So I grew up. I grew up not. Not being in a family of faith necessarily. My mom was raised Irish Catholic, and she just did a hell of a job protecting me from any type of harmful indoctrination.
0:10:49 Erin: She was like, thatโs amazing. It was.
0:10:52 Wendy: Thatโs so great. For years, I was like, mom, you are a little psycho about that. Iโm fine, you know?
0:10:57 Erin: And sheโs like, I will not have this happen again. I will not repeat the cycle. Yes.
0:11:02 Wendy: And. And itโs like as, as weโre getting older, Iโm slowly, like, encouraging her to like, maybe there, maybe we could just. When I go home to D.C. in, in the January, weโre going to go to the Episcopalian church where the pastor is Gene. Do you know his last name? He was like one of the first gay, like, big time priest or pastors in the Episcopalian world. And Iโm like, mom, I want to go to this church.
0:11:30 Wendy: And sheโs like, okay, Iโll go with you. And Iโm like, did you just say yes?
0:11:34 Erin: Are you, Are you. Do you know all the details?
0:11:36 Wendy: And itโs in D.C. which my parents have always been like, oh, God, thereโs going to be traffic and the beltway. And Iโm like, mom. So slowly, you know. But sheโs. She really did do a great job of, of kind of protecting me from that indoctrination. So when I found my faith or found God when I was 19, I did have a friend in my teen years that was what I would call, like a scary Christian. She would tell our Jewish friend all the time, youโre going to hell if you donโt, you know, repent and convert. Like, and then she would laugh and weโd like, play the Ouija board. Like, sure. Hypocrisy.
0:12:10 Erin: Absolutely. No question.
0:12:11 Wendy: I just watched her. I would go to church, but some. Jesus was like, still like, wendy, itโs okay. Just, just, letโs ignore that. And just something was happening in my heart. And so when I came to know God actually started out at a Disciples of Christ church. And oh my gosh, it was just such a beautiful season. I hung out with old people and it was just lovely. It was just pure, beautiful, like, you know, immersion into the faith. And then I got into the evangelical world for about a decade and thatโs when things started to feel very, like, off in my heart. And thatโs when I started teaching a ton. And I really had to work diligently to be accepted into the church, to teach compassionate discipline But Iโm proud to say that it, it, I got in. Right. Like, it was wonderful.
0:12:57 Wendy: But there, that was the beginning of the season where I was like, thatโs crazy to learn that there was all these teachings that are so called Christian telling other Christians that to interpret the Bible, the, this is the truth and itโs, you have to hit your children. And I just had so many personal close relationships with pastors, wives or people who were like, no, we are sure this is the way.
0:13:22 Erin: Yeah.
0:13:22 Wendy: And so for many of our students, thatโs where it starts. They start to question and then, you know, I think a lot of churches do a great job of allowing you to question, but the answer you come to is a different, different thing. Right.
0:13:36 Erin: Thatโs such a good observation and insight. I think thatโs absolutely true. Like, there are a lot of faith communities that would be like, oh my gosh, like, we are so okay with doubts and questions, but you better wrap them up real fast. And on the other side of them, you need to stick with the party line. Absolutely, thatโs 100% true.
0:13:55 Wendy: Yeah. And so Iโve just had students over the years. I mean, it is so heartbreaking to see what happens to them when they choose just the simple choice of like, hey, Iโm not going to hit my kids anymore. Iโm going to compassionately discipline them. I mean, they are exiled. They are sometimes brought into rooms, like concerned staff members. Like really jokes made about them. You know, like, it is just really intense. So that it starts there and then it turns into some, some people start to get that feeling, that gut feeling of like, wow, thereโs this oppressed group or this oppressed group, whether itโs with racism or the queer community, like, yikes, am I really in line? Which is with the. What is being taught and how these people are being treated and, and excluded. And so the questions just start to go out here and it can be very, very heavy.
0:14:47 Wendy: And, and just going through what I, I just recently was asked to step down from like a leadership ministry role at the church I was attending because it was public that I became an affirming Christian. And it was just a wild experience to be like, weโre really doing this.
0:15:04 Erin: Yeah, weโre really doing.
0:15:05 Wendy: Weโre really doing this. This is, this is the line. So it was the answer I came to that they werenโt okay with. And I know not everybody has that big like shaking of the, like the earthquake moment, but for that one, for me, I was like, oh, I guess Iโm fully In this now where itโs like, yeah, but I think not everybody has that, like, earthquake moment where youโre like, oh, crap, Iโm all the way over here or something. So I hear from your story that it was just like a gradual.
0:15:32 Wendy: You started to really dig in and create a community where questions were honored. And part of, like, ancient Christianity, Would you say that? Or was there the moments of, like, holy smokes. This was gnarly.
0:15:45 Erin: Well, I mean, I think, you know, I think so much of it ebb and ebbs and flows. You know, there are some moments and. And to me, the work of deconstruction, reconstruction is very cyclical. I. And. And that. That would be true of my faith. My whole life, like, felt like I was, you know, Super Mario Brothers. Iโve got to get through the end of this level. Iโve got to, you know, jump on the flag for pole, beat the main boss, and then Iโll have the princess. I will have the. The final best faith I can possibly have.
0:16:21 Erin: And that doesnโt exist. And so I think what was so helpful for me was to go, this is actually the work of my life. This is like, I will never stop asking questions and working out my faith with fear, with trembling, with joy. And that. Thatโs okay. That. That is a part of what we do with God, is wrestle. We are the people of Israel, and Israel means to wrestle. And so I think, you know, thereโs such a good.
0:16:54 Erin: Thereโs such a good naming in that. To go. Your job is not to be certain. Your job is to have a relationship with God. And relationships, they ebb and flow. They go through a qu. They go through questioning periods. They go through rich periods. And I think just kind of letting go need to be. Have a fixed faith was a very helpful process for me.
0:17:18 Wendy: I love that. Okay, and letโs transition to this. This next question I have for you about, like, when you said the word certain, I was like, oh, the ping.
0:17:25 Erin: Right, like, yeah, exactly.
0:17:27 Wendy: Get deep into the evangelical world. Weโre like, oh, the. Like. I mean, the. The words that get said about the truth and certain, right? And then youโve got like, the Bible clearly says. The Bible clearly says, yeah, like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I. When I. So that situation that recently happened at my church that I loved so much, we were. We were so happy there. But we did decide to leave because I was like, you know what?
0:17:53 Wendy: I love you guys, but I canโt do this. I canโt be part of somewhere that Iโm not like Iโm feared as dangerous or something.
0:17:59 Erin: Yeah.
0:17:59 Wendy: And I shared on in a whim. I kind of shared about the. The pain of what that feels like. And the dang thing went freaking viral. And I was like, of course it did. I didnโt expect this.
0:18:10 Erin: Yeah.
0:18:10 Wendy: But it was a really interesting experiment in humanity. Right. And Christianity. Because I got to see, like the first few days was just nothing but love and support. And then some different opinions started, different thoughts, decided to. Yeah, there was a season where it was like 20, 30 a day. And I tried my hardest to keep up with them responding with compassion and then explaining the difference, you know, between reading the Bible with a contextual lens versus inerrancy and all the things.
0:18:42 Wendy: And it was just so nasty and, and not even, like, I wonโt say the word nasty. Iโll say Iโm just going to call it interesting because to see the amount of people who were just so uncomfortable with me wrestling and coming to a different place than them, they really wanted to make sure that, that I knew that this was not Christianity. It was untruth. There was certainty, there was ex. The tone was, you idiot.
0:19:11 Wendy: Like, you are being led astray. So.
0:19:14 Erin: Or condescending or, you know, something like that. It can, it can get really. It can get really tough to maintain humanity and compassion in that. And I feel that for you. Wild.
0:19:27 Wendy: Iโm like, are we, Are you sure? Weโre in the same faith here? But when it comes to exploring the tension between faith and cultural influences, obviously weโve seen here in America what has. Has happened the last few years. So commodification, nationalism, scandals, and religion. How do you stay with that tension and, like, maintain your compassion for humanity? Yeah, like, you know, that tension.
0:19:53 Erin: You know, I think for me, I. I fell head over heels in love with Jesus when I was 8 years old. Like, sign me up. I didnโt even really know if it was real or not. I talk about this in the book, but I, like, genuinely didnโt even know if it was real or not. And I was like, this guy rules. Heโs into snacks. He says if youโre mean to kids, you should get thrown in the ocean. And I was like, why are we not taking that more seriously? That feels like something thatโs important, you know, I just, I was so into it.
0:20:24 Erin: And Iโm not going to let someone with a power trip or a limiting way of interpreting scripture walk out the door with Jesus like this. This faith, this wrestling is just as much mine as it is theirs. Like A traditional kind of. I guess, I guess the best way to put that is just a traditional evangelical line of faith that works for some people. And I, like, Iโm, Iโm happy for, for those people. I do. I think that theyโre missing a richness by not questioning a little bit. Yeah. But also, I know that you can have faith like a child, and thatโs fine.
0:21:10 Erin: But for me, I am not going to let someone tell me that just because Iโm affirming or just because I donโt view the Bible as perfectly inerrant or any of those things. But I donโt also hold to a very robust and traditional viewpoint of faith. Like, and I think learning about all of the different ways you can be a Christian and all of the different ways you can interpret Scripture has been such a gift to me to go, hey, just because this person says this, that doesnโt necessarily make it true.
0:21:47 Erin: It could be, it could also be another interpretation or another, like another viewpoint. It, no one, everyone is a little bit wrong about something, and I think that is a really key thing, like remaining humble in your opinions. The Bible is clear on, like, maybe five things. I feel like theyโre very basic. I mean, you go back to those creeds and itโs, itโs, thatโs pretty much it.
0:22:19 Wendy: Yeah.
0:22:19 Erin: I donโt, I want to, I love turning the gem of scripture. I love looking at different. I mean, I love the Bible. Thatโs part of my job. And it could not be more fun for me. And Iโm, and Iโm okay with not knowing things. Iโm okay with being wrong about things. I, Iโm okay with going, hey, actually, Iโve kind of rethought this, and I donโt know that the way I thought about this, this is actually the way Iโm going to continue thinking about it. Iโve, you know, Iโve read this, Iโve heard this, Iโve researched this.
0:22:53 Erin: There are just so many ways to be a Christian. And I, I canโt, I cannot in good conscience watch someone Americanize, commodify, scandalize the gospel. I just, I, I, I, I donโt want to do it. And so I, itโs, itโs still mine. Itโs still my faith. It just looks different. And I think that has been a really helpful lens to look through for me.
0:23:23 Wendy: Yeah. And, you know, as weโre talking about this in the realm of parenting, like modeling healthy deconstruction for our kids, like, that is that, is it, Erin? Itโs Like, I. I sense. I sense empowerment, right? Like, we get to. We get to lead the way. We.
0:23:47 Erin: We go through this, and I love that, like, we get to, like, this is. This is part of what it means to be a person of faith is to ask questions and to wrestle with things. And thatโs. And thatโs it. God did not have to set it up like that. God could have. Jesus could have come down with Wayne Grudem Systematic Theology and called it a. That did not happen. We were given agency and we were given inclusion, and we were given a space at the table.
0:24:16 Erin: And so I want to take advantage of that. I want to, you know, dig and excavate, and I want to get in there with that because this is the work of our lives, Right?
0:24:29 Wendy: Yeah. And to be able to model that for our kids. And especially when I hear you talk about not letting someone, you know, my word is like, hijack your experience. And that is something that I want our children to be able to see. Right. This idea that itโs. It can. It can feel so easy to, like, blame a lot of other people or a group of people for, like, suffering and misery. And there is real moments of hurt where youโre just like, oh, this is like. Feels like a dagger to my heart. I canโt believe this is the reality of what weโre facing or in. Within our faith.
0:25:12 Wendy: But there is some real opportunity when you can teach your children. Like, there is. There is hardship here, and it is. There is sadness and grief and, And. And questioning, like, how do I still belong? Even with, like, family members that may do faith different, but we get to. We get to have this experience the way we want it to be, and weโre going to have joy and weโre going to have curiosity, and weโre going to be consistently seeking to understand when someone holds such a certain unbendable, unable to talk with respect kind of viewer. Like, we are still going to hold respect, and we will not allow them to like, that. I just. Here at Fresh Start Family, weโre all about, like, we teach firm and kind.
0:26:02 Wendy: Like, we are. You know, a lot of people think, especially with the. The attack from the, like, very off. I donโt even. That thatโs the right word. Like, thereโs a whole section of Christianity that really is just committed. Committed to making sure people know that gentle parenting isnโt biblical. And youโre just sure thatโs gonna be your mission in life.
0:26:22 Erin: Thatโs the thing you want. Thatโs the hill you want to die on. Okay, thatโs interesting. And I think that is so indicative of what is important to people. And in some of these cases, there is a fear that is a comfort, like a weighted blanket, I think, for people.
0:26:43 Wendy: Yes. Great.
0:26:44 Erin: And you know, and I donโt like, I understand that I can be an anxious person. I can hold a lot of worry and burden. And sometimes that feels really good because it means that Iโm involved, It means that I have things to care about. It means that I feel like Iโm doing something. But so often, I think when you donโt take a posture of curiosity in your life about anything, it becomes very hard to work that muscle in matters that feel as weighty as faith.
0:27:16 Wendy: Yeah, it is. It is so, so true. And itโs like, I know when you talk about the fear can feel like a weighted blanket. Like, I do so much nervous system healing and regulation and education work and itโs like, like it. I know for so many people who were raised like deep in the evangelical or fundamental world or even like modern, like normal culture, it was entrenched in that too. But fear was the main driver like that.
0:27:44 Wendy: If you donโt listen, if you make a mistake, like, thereโs going to be a price to pay and itโs, youโre going to hell and youโre going to hell. Right. So thereโs pain, shame, humiliation in the home, whether itโs physical or emotional. Whatโs wrong with you? What were you thinking? Now I have to hit you because thatโs what God, like all this wacky stuff. And then on top of that, you have this extra level of like hell, eternity. And the amount of fear that that creates, like, thatโs the norm in the nervous system.
0:28:16 Wendy: And so that feels almost safer to just be in it as 100, you know, so it makes sense. Thatโs why.
0:28:24 Erin: Yeah, I have a lot of compassion for people who are stuck in that fear because Iโve 100% been there. And it is really genuinely scary to kind of step out on that iced over lake of your questions and your doubts and go, is this going to hold? And if it doesnโt hold, what happens then? Who is still on the shore? Who is in the, the ice with me? How do I get out of this? Will I drown? And I think that is just that, that, that unlocking that and going into that room to mix like 20 metaphors in there is, is really genuinely terrifying. And so I have a lot of compassion for that.
0:29:09 Erin: And I know the feeling of like, but if, but if we pull this thread. Whatโs like, is the whole thing going to unravel? And what does that mean when it unravels? Itโs very scary.
0:29:19 Wendy: And you hear that a lot, right? Like a slippery slope.
0:29:22 Erin: Oh, yeah.
0:29:23 Wendy: You start to question, is hitting kids biblical? Oh, slippery slope. Like, I feel like weโve come a long way in the last decade or so of, like, people being like, no, we can pull that string. Itโs gonna be okay. Like, weโre just gonna learn to do it different. But definitely in the affirming conversation, Iโm like, dang, People are terrified to pull the string. And they just are like, if you question this, then is anything else gonna be, you know, so thatโs a great. I love all your analogies.
0:29:53 Erin: Well, these are so helpful. Yeah. If the Bibleโs not inerrant, then what is its power? If, you know, if this didnโt happen, then how can we believe that this hap. And itโs. I go, hey, like, there. The world is full of a lot of contradiction. The world is full of a lot of gray area. And it is also okay to just not know things. And I. And, like, I say that to myself because I want to know everything.
0:30:21 Erin: And I live with children who are, you know, by nature, very curious before they get that tamped out of them. And so I think. I think just honoring that and having an environment of that, if thatโs how you. If thatโs the way you want your kids to look at faith, then you have to model that, and you have to be okay with not knowing, and you have to show them that itโs okay for them to. To not know either.
0:30:47 Wendy: I love that. And so we were going to. Every time I say wrestle, I crack up because Terry always. Every time I say wrestle, a guy says wrestle. Like, itโs like an Alabama thing.
0:30:58 Erin: Thatโs a. Yeah, thatโs a very Alabama, Texas thing. Weโre wrestling. Yeah, thatโs a wrestler.
0:31:02 Wendy: Have you ever seen that kid on. Heโs got, like, a big Instagram account. I feel like heโs like five or six, and heโs like the wrestling kid. He comes home from school so grouchy. Oh, I gotta find it. Heโs gotta be in Alabama or Mississippi or something because, oh, my gosh. Accent is thick and he is. He comes home so grouchy from work, and. And heโs like, donโt talk to me right now. Heโs like, like, I. I got stuff to do. I got feed the pigs. I gotta do all this stuff. And his dadโs like, you wanna wrestle? Heโs like, not right now. Iโm stressed out. I got stuff to do.
0:31:34 Erin: Youโre gonna die.
0:31:35 Wendy: Okay, Iโll send it to you.
0:31:35 Erin: Okay. Yes, I do wanna see that.
0:31:37 Wendy: Our second, like, little section we were gonna talk about is just wrestling with God in front of our kids. And so this idea of transparency. Right. And weโve touched on it a little bit. But, like, what I, what I see is like, like, it is an art to be transparent with our kids about what weโre kind of working through with scripture or studying or. And then do it in a way that, again, is not, like, focused for me. This is. And then I want to hear your thoughts, like, diminishing someone else who maybe has come to a different place and is a little aggressive with their. Youโre wrong stance. Right. But just to have it focused more on, like, like, hey, this is what Iโm kind of wrestling with right now. And itโs, remember, itโs healthy, but, like, when it comes to transparency, because youโve got seven.
0:32:24 Wendy: Did you say 10 and 15?
0:32:26 Erin: Seven, 11 and 15.
0:32:28 Wendy: And they got this mom whoโs like a professional wrestler. And so how does that look like, are, you know, transparency with your kids? And I think, like, as maybe like the last five years or as you went through this journey, what did it look like as far as transparency with the kids?
0:32:42 Erin: Yeah. So I think, you know, youโve got to ask yourself a series of questions. I think when youโre thinking about how to do this with your kids, I think you ask what is developmentally appropriate for them? Yeah, I think there are certain aspects of faith that if you introduce them, I mean, itโs the milk versus meat thing. Right. If you introduce some of these concepts, like, their brain is literally not equipped to deal with that. They, like, thatโs. I canโt talk to my 7 year old about Richard Rohrโs boxes of faith. Like, I canโt. I canโt, like, talk about, you know, the inerrancy of scripture with him. Heโs not that.
0:33:21 Erin: Thatโs not a concept. Heโs very into Pokemon right now, and thatโs really what he wants to talk about the most. And so if I was to throw a wrench in, you know, whatever someone was saying about, you know, okay, we believe the Bible because God gave us the Bible. Like, thatโs not a chance for me to be like, yes. But also, you know, I have that conversation with my 11 year old on some level. I have that conversation with my 15 year old on Another level.
0:33:48 Erin: But I think, you know, how mature is your child? How grounded is your child? Like, how. What is your childโs personality? Are they naturally curious? Do they love certainty and safety and security? I think, think. I think really coming to this question is really about defining and understanding. What are the key principles you want to pass along to your kids about faith? Like, what. What is it that you hope their faith looks like?
0:34:19 Erin: And if youโre hoping that it is a faith that is comfortable with curiosity and questions and all of these things, then you have to model that. You have to. There has to be safety in that. There has to be belonging in that. And I think even when youโve got outside sources that are, you know, really asking for more certainty, for more surety, you can counteract that by saying, you know, in this family, the way that we do this is we wrestle, we ask questions. We sometimes donโt know the answer. And thatโs okay, because at the end of the day, we know that one of the things the Bible is certain about is that God loves us.
0:35:01 Erin: And we can start there, and then we can move out from. From that starting point with all of our questions and our curiosities.
0:35:10 Wendy: Yes. Like, you know those majors, right? I know.
0:35:13 Erin: Yeah.
0:35:13 Wendy: Meredith Millerโs book.
0:35:15 Erin: Oh, God. And listen, everything Iโve ever gotten right about, you know, spirituality and parenting is from Mary, so. Sheโs wonderful. Sheโs wonderful.
0:35:27 Wendy: Sheโs wonderful. She was on our show. Thatโs where we had the first affirming conversation. And I was, like, completely naive. I had no idea how the literal world was gonna freak out. That was, like, where I was like, oh, welcome. I. I didnโt quite understand this. I had no idea. I was not raised in this world. And now it was like, I think we lost 400 subscribers in, like, 30 minutes from our email list of 20K.
0:35:53 Wendy: I was like, dang. But it was such a rich conversation. I studied with Meredith for a few months when it came to that subject, but. But yeah, that she does such a great job of. Of helping us remember those concepts of, like, focusing on the majors versus minors, which really resonates with me as. As a Christian and is like, you know, thatโs just the world I want to live in. Right. Weโre brothers and sisters of Christ, where it is about the majors, not the minors. And in a world where it sure seems to be becoming about the minors, not the majors, itโs confusing, but we do it. And.
0:36:25 Wendy: And I love it. And just maybe, you know, itโs like, it comes to Mind, like looking for those opportunities to use that verbiage. You just said, like, I was listening to a podcast the other day and I forget who it was, but she said, I think she had like a seven year old or something. And she said it was wild. You know, I was super tired and was ready to go to bed and. But my little girl turned to me and was like, hey, mom, like, what happens when we die?
0:36:49 Wendy: You know? And she just flat out like, you know, Iโm sure itโs like 9pm the kids are often so good for long.
0:36:54 Erin: They love doing that. And then, and then, you know this. When you get a teenager, they want to come in at 11 oโclock and really unpack their day. And youโre like, my, my sister in Christ, I have been in bed since 9. This is not the time. But youโre like, okay, letโs rally.
0:37:09 Wendy: Oh, you do it right. Because you know, you know, like there was a season when Stella was like probably 12 to 15. That was her sweet spot where I was like, she will talk to me forever and ever and ever. And it was some of the most beautiful conversations. Yeah, I was exhausted the next day. But she said it was just so cool to like sit there and, and start being like, you know, I donโt know, letโs talk about it, you know, and just let her little, her little person just go about it. And I will say thatโs kind of one of my wrestle things right now. Iโm like, oh, letโs. Thatโs, you know, Iโm just kind of studying and, and looking at hell scriptures and listening to some interesting conversation around like this, this classic idea of like hell is like this burning infirmary.
0:37:48 Erin: Yeah. Penal substitutionary atonement and the whole thing. Yeah, absolutely.
0:37:52 Wendy: Right. And just like, wow, thereโs some really interesting thoughts in my head that Iโm, you know, so that would be like. If I, if my kid were to ask me that might be an opportunity to just be transparent and be like, like, you know, great question. If they were to like, do, do we go to hell or can you go to hell, heaven, whatever. Like to be. Just be like, the transparency might look like. Good question.
0:38:12 Wendy: Thatโs something that Iโm kind of wrestling with right now and. Yeah. What do you think? You know, like, hereโs what I do know. And I donโt like, I love the language of like, I donโt know.
0:38:22 Erin: Yeah. Like, and I think Meredith has another really great phrase that, that I have incorporated a ton and it is. Lots of different people feel a Lot of different ways about this. And I think that is so valuable because it offers that understanding that Christianity is so expansive and there are so many interpretations of how to be a faithful Christian, and it just sort of offers them a little buffet to be like, hey, you know, some people think that hell is this, this, some people think that hell is this.
0:38:58 Erin: Scripture says this, this, this, and this, and those all sound like really different things, donโt they? So I wonder what we can take from that. Like, what do you think? And so that has been. That little phrase has been so helpful just to offer my kids, like, the Piccadilly Buffet of what other options are available to them while still holding to, like, faithful Christian interpretation. Because youโve got all of these people over here who they see it differently than maybe we did when we grew up evangelical, you know.
0:39:29 Wendy: Yes. Oh, thatโs true. Iโm glad you brought in that. That phrase, because that is really, really helpful. Okay, Erin. Reclaiming the good. Setting new boundaries. So tell us a little bit about your process, so to speak, that you have identified or. Or developed to kind of keep. Like, figure out what do you want to keep and what do you want to release in your faith journey? Right. Like, as far as. What does that looked like for you?
0:39:58 Erin: Yeah. So I think, you know, it was a lot of defining what. Hold on, let me reset. Let me say that again. I think what it looked like for me was if itโs not good news for everyone, itโs not good news for anyone. And that really, it really shrinks.
0:40:23 Wendy: The.
0:40:23 Erin: Certainty of, you know, this vast, like, whole belief system. Oh, okay. Well, you know, A, B, C and D are very fixed and certain. But when you really distill it down to if itโs not good news for everyone, itโs not good news for anyone. You really got to get specific. And there are so many things that are secondary and tertiary that we have made primary, and weโve actually put the primaries into the secondary and the tertiary categories.
0:40:52 Erin: And for me, it was really going back to the Gospels and really trying to understand who is this person and why am I following this person and what does that mean in my life? And kind of trying to suss out through the Gospels and through those who spent time with Jesus what was important to him, like, what did his actions reveal, what did his words reveal about what was important to him? And really, kind of where it laid down for me was love God, love people.
0:41:31 Erin: And putting that through a lens of who is anyone getting dehumanized in this action that Iโm doing because I do not believe that that is of God. So seeing everyone as with imago dei, with the image of God in them and behaving with that in mind. And then what comes out of me based on this relationship that I have, what does it mean for me if. If I donโt. If I. Like, what good is a resurrection if nothing gets reborn again?
0:42:04 Erin: You know, what good is a necklace that youโre never going to wear again? A sweater that youโre never going to wear again? If it needs to be destroyed by the truth, it should be destroyed by the truth. And so it was really through that lens of the fruits of the spirit and whoโs getting dehumanized that I really kind of was able to laser focus on what I wanted to keep and what I thought needed to go.
0:42:29 Erin: So thatโs kind of how I did it. I mean, what about for you? Like, what was the way that you sort of processed through some of that? That.
0:42:37 Wendy: Yeah, well, definitely that lens of like, is it helpful for, For. For all. All. Is anyone getting dehumanized? Right. Like, that was. Became a huge part of it for me. And I think whatโs been so, like, you just, you said it all so, so, so well. But you know what? I guess my answer to that is, is whatโs been helpful for me is to actually like, key into like my body and nature.
0:43:04 Erin: Oh.
0:43:05 Wendy: Because. Because I think the more I learn. So Iโve been teaching for about 10 years and like the last year or two got super into nervous system and more like work around the body in addition to the mind and the thoughts. Because in this work we do so much mindset work, but like, yeah. Without the body integration, especially because of the nervous system conditioning in the first decade of life, because of the hand me down parenting tactics, itโs really like just such a part of the journey. But for me, trusting that my intuition is. Is trustable. Right. Like, and again, I didnโt grow up with the teachings that so many have in my community of like, you canโt trust your heart.
0:43:45 Erin: Oh, yeah.
0:43:46 Wendy: It is wicked. Right. Like, they will take that scripture and pound it in to the soul of a human being. You cannot trust yourself. Yeah. With things like the truth is hard. It is not meant to feel good.
0:43:58 Erin: Yeah.
0:43:59 Wendy: And I can just, just sense my body these days. And when I look back at like the last, I GUESS it was 15 years in kind of the evangelical world, I could sense that my body was uncomfortable in a lot of these moments with these topics that itโs like Something is off here. Something is off here. And so to learn how to trust that. And then nature, too, of just reminding us, like, like, how is this supposed to look?
0:44:29 Wendy: You know, it has been helpful. So. But, yeah, what a. What a journey, right? To, like, be able. What a journey. And a lot of. And especially because, you know, you mentioned the word belonging. Itโs. It is intense. Like, Iโve been. I think Godโs had me on such an interesting season of healing with belonging. Like, it hits so deep for me when, like, that thing happened at my church and. And the. The hit of, like, you donโt belong here.
0:45:03 Erin: Yeah.
0:45:04 Wendy: You donโt fit in. You are not loved. Youโre like, ooh, somethingโs wrong. Youโre out.
0:45:08 Erin: Yeah, youโre out. Yeah.
0:45:10 Wendy: That has been, like, so beautiful to work through because itโs such a precious part of being a human, of having a tender heart and. And just knowing that, like, you can try, you can trust your emotions and your feelings. And when I got that hit, I was like, oh, this is just a, like a hair, like, on my head example of what that entire community must feel. And so if this is causing this much pain in a white straight woman, imagine.
0:45:42 Wendy: And so it was just like a lovely. Okay, great. I feel really good about this direction that Iโve chosen to go in because everyone, as you said, thereโs all part of being human is like, right versus wrong. What are you right? Are you wrong? What if youโre wrong?
0:45:57 Erin: You know?
0:45:58 Wendy: And so that, like, bottle, like, moving through that feeling of hurt and. And not belonging or scared of not belonging and. And like, that whole bodily experience was really helpful for me to solidify what I wanted to hold on to in my faith. And that was that I was going to be someone who showed up, up, that treated everyone with the humanity they deserved, and that I actually believe that the truth is great news. The truth is, like, lovely, and it sets people. Itโs lovely.
0:46:29 Erin: Yeah. And I think, like, through this process, I have found myself to be more in love with God. I have experienced, like, I feel like I see a greater picture of mercy and grace and love. You know, I think weโve got to. Weโve got to throw away the measuring stick of right or wrong, correct or incorrect.
0:46:49 Wendy: Yeah.
0:46:50 Erin: And thereโs got to be a different way to measure how we are being faithful Christians because we get so hung up on this black and white thing where thatโs just not. Where thatโs not where life is lived, unfortunately. And so I think when we can change that Measuring stick to, am I being loving? Am I being Jesus to this group of people. Now that changes because Jesus was one way with a lot of people and he was another way with other people.
0:47:23 Erin: He was one way with adults and another way with kids. He was one way with rich people and one way with poor people. Heโs one way with well people, one way with sick people. And so just paying attention to how to love people well in this, in this life, I think is the better measuring stick.
0:47:40 Wendy: I love that. And to be okay sitting in the confusion of that because again, so many people have been conditioned to see loving being very different than some of us. Right. Like, Right. Itโs like, oh, this is now extra confusing. Iโm sure it always was, but for hundreds of years. But now itโs like this extra lens of like, you have people who might be having a different experience in their faith or a different approach coach who really believe that they are being loving. Right? Absolutely.
0:48:12 Wendy: But you get to tap into your own intuition. Right. Like, and, and I really believe that we are. We have such an incredible awareness on the inside. And thatโs really what we teach parents to teach their kids, is like, you want children to listen and cooperate because theyโre like, in line with their own moral compass and their intuition and that it feels good to treat people this way or solve conflict this way or see mistakes as opportunities to learn whatever, have compassion.
0:48:44 Wendy: Not because I said so or because youโre scared of me, but itโs. Itโs just that inner knowing of like, okay, when I hear this discussion of loving, and then I hear this discussion of loving, what feels more right with my intuition and my gut. And itโs okay to, to question if I was operating out of a place that people told me was loving. And then I realized, oh, they, like, the discipline is a great example. Right. Like, people are fed this message in some of these circles of like, itโs the most loving thing you can do to consistently hit your child when they make a mistake. Like that is without that, like, I. I see books and people without that, itโs child abuse leaves.
0:49:28 Erin: Yeah, absolutely.
0:49:30 Wendy: And so how confusing for these souls who are aching on the inside every time they say, okay, letโs go get your spanking down. The little.
0:49:39 Erin: Yeah.
0:49:39 Wendy: This person begs them, please, please donโt hit me. And, and theyโre like, well, I. Iโm being loving. Youโre not going to get it till youโre older. So anyways, that, that confusion around what loving is, and like to sit with that and to to be in the questioning. Right. And just have safety maybe in that when it feels hellish.
0:49:57 Erin: Yeah. And I think, I think also, like, you know, weโre told to your point about, you know, your heart is evil, you have like, you are not a good person. You. All of these things that these kind of messages that we marinate in. And then also weโre told that we have Holy Spirit. And itโs like, okay, but what does that mean? And what does that, like, how can I be evil? How can the thoughts that I think be evil? How can they be, you know, bad anti God, like, you know, rebellious and all of these things. And Iโm also supposed to have Holy Spirit, like, working in me, in my thought life, in my, you know, my heart life, all of these things. Itโs very confusing.
0:50:40 Erin: And I think we, we tend to just go, hey, the work thatโs happening in your body, thatโs, you know, feelings or whatever. I also think thatโs Holy Spirit sometimes being like, donโt hit your kid. Itโs not a good thing to hit your kid. And you donโt have to listen to people who tell you that it is. So I think. And Holy Spirit scares people. And thatโs why we donโt talk about Holy Spirit, because Holy Spirit can tell you one thing and Holy Spirit can tell me another thing.
0:51:10 Erin: And people donโt like that. That people very un into that. And so I think, you know, they donโt. Itโs. Itโs not helpful to have a. An organized religion where different people are taught different things. Thatโs very difficult. Thatโs why we split, you know, for thousands of years. So I think, I think trusting Holy Spirit is another aspect of that. And prayer, prayer and praying through, like, why does this feel weird to me? Or why donโt I like this? Or why do I see other people saying a different thing?
0:51:41 Erin: Let me examine that and let me see what I actually think.
0:51:45 Wendy: Yes. Itโs so beautiful. And if you could leave us. Erin, two things. When it comes to this sense of, of belonging and finding this community, itโs like, of course, itโs part. Those of us who are going through this kind of evolving process, we want to make sure we are. We are hearing voices of everyone. Thatโs not just an echo chamber. But man, thereโs nothing like finding a community where you people get you and youโre not treated like youโre crazy for questioning some things or coming to a different place on the, the questions youโve wrestled with.
0:52:21 Wendy: But for what are like, some of Your favorite people, like, that youโre just like, oh, man. Like, this is like the circle. Some of the people that I like, I. I love just hearing their voices and their reflections. Or is there like maybe three or four that youโre like? Like, for me, itโs Sarah. Bessie for sure is at the top. Iโm like, absolutely. Oh, if I can just check in with Sarah and Kayla, every Kayla Craig, everything will be okay.
0:52:47 Erin: Yes.
0:52:47 Wendy: But is there some others that come to your mind?
0:52:50 Erin: Yeah. You know, for me, I really love Jamar Tisby. I think he is one of the most. And I. And I like Jamar a lot because he tends to skew a little more conservative than I do, and that is helpful for me, but Iโm not having to subject myself to, like, you know, abusive language or, you know.
0:53:11 Wendy: Yeah, being.
0:53:12 Erin: Being kind of belittled for the way I view faith. But he. But he really just brings such a richness to text, and heโs just so brilliant. And I love his work around, you know, kind of raising anti racist children and what that means for the gospel. So I really love Jamar. I am a big fan of Benjamin Creamer. Yes. I like Benjamin. If youโre listening. Iโm obsessed with you. I basically just send your screenshots to everyone I know.
0:53:48 Erin: I. I genuinely believe that. That Benjamin is a prophet for our time, like, 100%, no question about it.
0:53:55 Wendy: I got to get him on the show. Yes. Manager. Iโm like, we got to get him on the show.
0:53:59 Erin: You really have to. Heโs so great. I really love hearing from Zach Lambert, who is a pastor in Austin, Texas, at Restore. I think Zach has really. Heโs just very clear about what he believes and what he knows and, and how his church is run. And I. I find that to be just really refreshing. I love Kayla. I love. Gosh, thereโs just. Thereโs so many good people right now. And itโs, Itโs. I love. Thatโs why I love the democratization of the Internet is because itโs just like, it brings you so many people that you would not have known because, you know, they didnโt get a book deal or, you know, whatever. They didnโt go through those gate. Those gatekeeping things, which, you know, whatever. Theyโre good and bad at that. But yeah, yeah, I do. I do love those.
0:54:48 Erin: Those three. Theyโre. Theyโre great.
0:54:49 Wendy: Thatโs so good. Okay, well, Iโm gonna have to check out Jamar. I donโt. Jamar.
0:54:54 Erin: Right, Jamar. Jamar Tis. Jamar yes.
0:54:56 Wendy: Iโm gonna have to check him out. I. Heโs not in, heโs not in my, my radar right now.
0:55:00 Erin: Oh, I hope, I really hope that you like him.
0:55:02 Wendy: Okay. I have a intern and one of her jobs right now is to like unfollow everybody because there was a season of life where I just, I didnโt realize what was happening on. I didnโt know how to do Instagram and so I just followed everybody who followed me or something. And now I realize like, oh, I really want to like create an ecosystem that makes my nervous system feel settled when I open it. So weโre getting back to zero and then weโre just adding back maybe 20, 30.
0:55:28 Wendy: And so itโs going to be fun. Maybe Iโll do different seasons where I just. But I really want to keep it tight to like 20 or 30 for a season. So. Amazing. Well, Erin, I could talk to you for hours.
0:55:39 Erin: Itโs so lovely. Thank you.
0:55:41 Wendy: Oh, it just, it feels, feels it. Itโs so wonderful to, to meet other like minded people and, and you just have so much wonderful wisdom to share. Thank you for the work that you do and for being such a light worker in our world and for helping us who are raising human souls as weโre doing this whole evolving faith thing to help us feel more settled and grounded, being someone who welcomes questions into our faith journey.
0:56:06 Wendy: So will you let listeners know where they can come find your birthday book? We will of course add it to our shop page here at Fresh Start Family. So weโll make sure we have it there too. But where else can they come find you? Learn more about your work. Listen to the podcast, all the things.
0:56:22 Erin: Yeah, I am Erin H. Moon on literally everything. So thatโs the website Erin hmoon.com that is my substack, Erin H. Moon.substack.com thatโs my Instagram. I have left Twitter because I. Elon Musk does not tell me what to do. And, but anyway, thatโs kind of where I am. You can check out like indie bookstores to order. [email protected] Iโve got questions if that if you like supporting indie bookstores. So itโs got all the information there that you need. So.
0:56:57 Wendy: Yes. And if your library doesnโt carry it, make sure you request it.
0:57:00 Erin: Yes. Request it from your library. Yes.
0:57:02 Wendy: This should be at all of our libraries. So.
0:57:05 Erin: And if youโre an audiobook person. I read the audiobook, so and I donโt know when this is coming out. Is this coming out before? Like before the book drops officially?
0:57:16 Wendy: Oh, it has not dropped officially.
0:57:18 Erin: No, no, no. It comes out in February.
0:57:21 Wendy: Oh, Iโll probably drop it then in February maybe. What we go.
0:57:25 Erin: Okay. Well I was just going to say if itโs before, if itโs still in pre order season, the this is a secret it so but it wonโt be by the time this airs. But the audiobook is a pre order bonus. So if you like getting an audiobook, you can just buy the book and come to my website and weโll give you the audio for free. So.
0:57:45 Wendy: Oh, what a great bonus. What a great bonus. Amazing. Okay, listeners, viewers, go check out Erinโs work. Go find her everywhere that she is. Order this book, pre order this book, depending on when this episode comes out. But thank you again, Erin for being here. What a beautiful conversation.
0:58:02 Erin: Thank you for having me.
