On this episode of The Fresh Start Family Show, Wendy and Terry sit down with the incredible David Hayward – aka the Naked Pastor – to chat about breaking down fears and scarcity thinking that often comes when we challenge our faith (and the church) on issues we don’t agree on – when we begin to embrace deconstruction.
David has a B.A. in Bible and Theology, a Masters in Theological Studies in New Testament, and a Diploma of Ministry. He left the ministry in 2010 to embrace his passion of breaking down false concepts in religion through his powerful and influential books and art. He believes that all people have the right to live freely and authentically, and that we can fight back against oppressive systems that try to keep them held back.
He chats with Wendy and Terry about how we actually become wise by doubting and seeking answers. Questioning is healthy and an imperative for growth. It is when we are open to exploring our faith, facing our fears and being comfortable with the uncomfortable, that we can actually stand up for what we believe in – for what is actually the heart of Christ.
We can embrace our freedom to deconstruct what’s been handed to us. It’s in our nature (and the Bible!) to seek so we may find. It’s in this openness that we can really find our peace of mind and a deeper connection with all humanity.
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Episode Highlights
-There’s a double-edged sword to explore and question concepts (like spanking) and then to challenge and question the orthodox, religious opinions that drive these concepts
-Deconstruction means we’re going to be uncomfortable at times when we start question and challenge ideas and ideals
-After you deconstruct, don’t be in a hurry to “re-construct”
-Deconstruction never ends – don’t believe everything you’re told and everything you read
-The church often uses fear as a tool because it works at controlling us and keeping us from questioning things
-Loving our children fully cannot involve fear
-We are all connected on a deep and fundamental level, regardless of the differences that try to divide us
Resources Mentioned
Connect with David:
FREE Guide to Raising Strong Willed Kids with Integrity
Uplift Kids trial – and don’t forget the special discount code freshstart
Special thanks to Uplift Kids for their continued support of the Fresh Start Family Show!
Not able to listen or want to read along with us?
Here is the episode transcript
This episode is brought to you by the free Fresh Start Family learning guide: how to raise strong-willed kids with integrity so you don’t lose your mind. We understand what it’s like, families, to raise kids who push back a lot, maybe push buttons often, and say ‘no’ more than they say ‘yes’, and we’re here to help. You can download our free learning guide at freshstartfamilyonline.com/strongwilledkids.
Wendy:
Well, hello listeners. I’m so happy you’re here for a new episode. I’m your host, Wendy Snyder, positive parenting educator and family life coach, and you guys are in for a treat today. This episode is with David Hayward, who is better known as the Naked Pastor, and no, he’s not really naked. He’ll share a little bit more about why he calls himself that. But my goodness, you guys, Terry and I just had the best conversation with David about breaking free from fear and embracing deconstruction thoughts. And this episode was just really meaningful for me, you guys, because I am definitely in a season of my faith where I’m just becoming more and more confident, not engaging or supporting any type of systems that cause harm, suffering, humiliation, or pain to any section of society.
And you guys know from what I do here at Fresh Start Family, a huge part of that is children, right? I am a positive parenting educator, I’m a family life coach, but really at the heart of what I do is I am a child advocate. And it has definitely been such a journey for me over the last five years to really just start becoming more and more confident, being very outspoken about how I do disagree with so much of what the church has taught families. And thank God this is not every Christian church across the world. I have, you know, members of my team and also so many students who are like, thank God, Wendy, that was never taught in my church when it comes to using pain and fear and force and spanking and doing everything under the sun to justify and force it down parents’ throat, that spanking is the biblical way.
And it is okay. It’s not only, okay, it’s like absolutely, like if you wanna raise good, kind human beings who honor and fear God, then you need to spank ’em. Like it’s just a rhetoric that is really forced down a lot of people’s throats in the Christian world. What I, what I now am starting to refer to as the scary Christian world, because there are so many amazing churches and pastor pastors and communities of faith who are not teaching this, thank God. And so, you know, I’m just becoming really more adamant about finding communities and finding fellow lovers of Jesus Christ and people who are serious and care about their faith, but who are also very resistant to supporting any type of, you know, harmful messaging or just things that they’re questioning, right?
So this conversation with David Hayward today was really special to me because I really respect what he’s done in the world and what he continues to do, how he shows up both as an artist and as a pastor. And I’m just really, really thankful for this conversation because I think it’s going to give so many of you just, I guess freedom would be a good word for it, but it’s gonna encourage many of you to just stop and really make sure you’re thinking for yourself. So I’ll tell you a little bit more about David and you can go check out his work for yourself, but I think you really are just gonna love, love this conversation. So David has a BA in Bible and Theology, a Master’s in Theological Studies in New Testament and a Diploma of Ministry.
He was ordained to the ministry and served local churches, preaching and teaching and providing pastoral care for 30 years. He studied the Bible inside and out, and loves to help people. He left the ministry in 2010. People suggest he’s now an online pastor, which my goodness, he absolutely is. You’ll hear me calling him pastor throughout this interview, because he really is pastoring the light and love of Jesus Christ to the world. It’s just in a different way than a lot of other people do it. But he considers himself a pastor to the pastorless. He does love helping people find their way, their own way, on their own spiritual growth journeys. This means he is an LGBTQ ally, a feminist, and super progressive in his theology.
He’s been the Naked Pastor since 2005. And like any graffiti artist, he uses his images and words to challenge the status quo of religion and to offer hope for those who struggle and suffer under it. He believes in spiritual independence and helps people empower themselves to achieve it. The healthiest people are independent, autonomous, self ruling, and independent people from healthy, interdependent relationships rather than co-dependent ones. Community is important to him, but it requires healthy individuals to form. His online community, the Lasting Supper, is one, and you’re invited. He makes his art and words available all over the internet, his cartoons, Sophia Drawings, images of Christ, books, the Lasting Supper, and speakings are all part of his toolkit for helping others.
So I just found this interview so fascinating being someone that I feel like I’ve never been stronger in my faith, and we absolutely love our church here in San Diego, and it’s very important for me to be someone who always encourages us all to be able, in healthy environments where you are able to ask questions, you are able to challenge things that do not feel like they actually make sense or in line, right? Like there are things that I feel like just happen within our bodies when practices are going on or things are being said, or certain sections of humanity, whether it’s kids or whatever it may be, like are being spoken to and treated in disrespectful ways.
There are something happens in our bodies that we’re like, Hey, this doesn’t seem right, right? And then you’re gonna have, like so many people find me at Fresh Start Family, and like I said, they’ve been fed this rhetoric and it’s not just fed this rhetoric about how they have to discipline their kids, air quotes, discipline, let’s just be real – punish. But it’s, it’s been forced down their throat. And like I just had a student last week where her pastor, her pastor’s wife and her own father were basically telling her that she’s being satanic by using the fruits of the spirit to raise her children. So peace, love, kindness, kindness, self-control, like the fruits of the spirit.
You’re being satanic. She’s just like, what? And they’re like calling meetings with her and just making sure that she’s like, you know, really considering what she’s doing if she’s not willing to spank her children. And it’s just freaky. It is freaky. But so many people struggle with the process of just raising their hand and saying, Hey, I’m not cool with that. So I’m just gonna step to the side for a minute, just do a little research, maybe find some new circles to like honor Jesus and praise God in. And many of you are in that space right now, right? And so this is just an episode that is supposed to encourage you and just help you remember that there are, if you are a family of faith, there are so many ways to honor and worship Jesus Christ.
And you do not have to stay stuck in scary Christian circles. I call them scary Christians. But you know, there’s just different sections of Christianity that are very scary and dangerous, I would even add. So I know that you guys are gonna love this episode with David, and you’re just gonna hear us chat about his story, his art, some of his favorite pieces, how questioning beliefs and teachings like Spare the Rod, spoil the child BS can feel traumatic and scary. However, we can’t be free until we really beat the fear associated with challenging, like harmful, hurtful messages like that.
How becoming comfortable with de deconstruction is really a journey and not a task to complete the importance of trusting ourselves when we have thoughts that, oh my gosh, like what if we’re doing something wrong? What if our mom, dad, pastor’s, wife, whatever, like disagrees with us? Again, we talk about in this episode how important and healthy it is to question things when it comes to your faith. We also talk about how none of us are trapped, but instead at choice with how we practice our faith and how we honor God, and how many people who we look up to in the world who have made the biggest changes and have helped transform our communities and our nation and our planet in past history are not normal.
So really embracing our unique calling. So those are just a few things that we talk about today, but I know that you’re gonna fall in love with David, go support his work work. He is just doing, I think, beautiful work in the world through his simple, like really just compelling images, but also his messaging. As I mentioned, I get his emails every week and they are one of the only emails that I read every single week because I just love what he shares, and I just think that he is, is a person that just exudes the love and light of Jesus Christ. So thank you for listening, you guys, thank you so much. I pray that this is a blessing to you this Christmas season, to have to hear from someone like David and to have to hear our vulnerable, open, and honest conversation around all of the stuff that we talk about in this in today’s episode.
So without further ado, you guys help me welcome David to the show.
Stella:
Well, hey there, I’m Stella. Welcome to my mom and dad’s podcast, the Fresh Start Family Show. We’re so happy you’re here. We’re inspired by the ocean, Jesus, and rock and roll, and believe deeply in the true power of love and kindness. Together we hope to inspire you to expand your heart, learn new tools, and strengthen your family. Enjoy the show.
Wendy:
Well, hey, there families, and welcome to a new episode of the Fresh Start Family Show. I am so happy to be here together with David Hayward today. Welcome to the show, David.
David:
Hi. Thanks for having me. Nobody knows who David Hayward is. You gotta put…
Wendy:
I know, right?
Terry:
Oh, they do now,
Wendy:
My gosh.
Terry:
Oh, they do now.
Wendy:
Yes. Seriously, why did I introduce you like that? That is so funny, you guys. I am here with the Naked Pastor drum roll, everybody,
Terry:
Now they’re interested.
David:
Yeah, I’m fully clothed, though. Yeah.
Wendy:
And we’re doing video today, guys, so if you’re listening to the podcast, we’re gonna have to go check it out over on YouTube.
Terry:
Does he have clothes on? I don’t know. You’ll have to check. You’ll have to come see Family Show. Come on guys. Yeah, that’s right. Oh my God, it’s at least a robe. Yeah,
Wendy:
So good. Yeah, right. So good. Well, we are just gonna have the best conversation today, you guys, about breaking free from fear and embracing deconstruction thoughts when it comes to our faith and what we’ve been taught and all that good stuff. And so, David, it really is such an honor to have you here. I, as I’ve been preparing for this interview, it is amazing what God’s been doing and, and just showing me and encouraging me. And I know there is going to be points where I probably get emotional today because your work is really meaningful to me, to us, and it just spurs so much emotion and just, you know, I’m gonna have you tell the listeners a little bit more about your story before we get going into our subject matter.
And, but I just to set it up, you know, here at Fresh Start Family, we are an organization, a learning platform, a community, whatever you wanna call it, that really everyone is welcome here. We support families of all faiths, no faiths. The work that we teach when it comes to positive parenting and family life coaching is for everyone. Every, everyone who is raising a human soul is gonna benefit tremendously from this work. And we have a large percentage of our community that just resonates so much of the work because they know that we are a family who loves and praises Jesus. And so many of our, our listeners and our community members and our students have had really traumatic experiences with either the church or with being raised in a home where their parents told them that your or their parents were fed this.
Like what I call this, you know, just, I don’t even know if I have a term for it quite yet. I used to just call it the Scary Christian rhetoric, but the, you know, spare the rod, spoil the child rhetoric and just air quotes, discipline was used on them their entire first decade of life that include an immense amount of intimidation, pain, suffering, fear, force overpowering all these things. And then they come and find us and they’re like, oh my gosh, I do a lot of outspoken work about what true biblical parenting looks like, how compassion and unconditional love and grace and com, you know, like discipline with a mentorship and teaching angle actually looks like, and how it’s, it is actually what’s in line with Jesus and their heart just kind of breaks wide open.
And they have to go on this journey to start to figure out how to do things differently. Whether it’s been that they did things like we, we did things quite differently the first three years with our daughter, and then we found this beautiful work and really did the, the switcheroo, the U-turn, so to speak. So a lot of our families come in like that. They’ve, they’ve been fed this message by the church and then they realize like, whoa, this never resonated. This doesn’t work. Especially if they have strong-willed kids. Their strong-willed kids are just like, no, we are not going to be coerced by fear and force. And, and then they’re just faced with like this new reality of they’re questioning things. They ha they might still have pastors or circles at church that are telling them that if they’re considering switching up their discipline model, then they are wack and they’re just, I just know we have a lot of listeners who are going to resonate so much with our conversation today, and I know resonate with your artwork because we just have people that are not okay just doing what they’re told when their heart is like, no, we, we do not feel like this is in line A) with Jesus and B) with our moral compass.
So they’re just seeking, they’re just searching. And they’re often also just seeking to be more comfortable in their own skin during this journey to be able to still go to their beloved church, let’s say, and be able to hold a conversation around the coffee pot when someone starts talking about how fun, you know, how annoying it is that they have to whoop their kids. And, you know, my students and community is learning to like not laugh and step away and, and deal with the, the pain and the anguish of that. So that’s just to tell you a little bit more about who’s listening today.
Families I want to thank Uplift Kids for supporting the Fresh Start Family Show and give you a discount code. Uplift Kids makes it easy for families to nurture spirituality, emotional health, and timeless values, which we talked about when we interviewed them for the Fresh Start Family Show episode 130 titled The Benefits of Spirituality for Kids. I think what they’re doing is pretty special, so if you’re a parent who wants to create a culture of meaning, acceptance and reflection at home, head over to Upliftkids.org and use the code freshstart to get a two week free trial and a 10% off description. The trial gives you immediate access to their entire library for teens, kids, and littles so you can easily talk about values like kindness, gratitude, and humility along with emotional intelligence, spirituality, wisdom practices and more. So if you’re looking for engaging ways to nurture values from the world‘s wisdom traditions and the latest psychological research, check out upliftkids.org and use the code freshstart – all one word. You’ll have a year’s worth of meaningful and transformative conversations at home. Once again you can find them and learn more at upliftkids.org. OK back to the show.
And so when I found your artwork, it just resonated so much with me and literally brought me to tears because the things that you can, the conversations that you start in these simple line drawings, not all of your art is line drawings, but it’s just beautiful and it’s just so you have this tone of such love and, and invitation and comfort and peace, right?
Like I feel like I get entangled in these conversations that I’m learning to like not take part in because it, it’s like an attack, it’s violent communication. They’re just, it’s amazing how uncomfortable so many Christian circles are with when you start talking about grace and love. And I’m like, why? Why are you guys attacking us? But they do. And then I come over to your world and it’s just this peace filled comfort and the world just really needs that. So that, I just wanted to set that up and let you know kind of more, a little bit more about who’s listening today. And if with all that, could you just tell everyone your story? Your story is amazing and it’s just awesome.
So how did you get here? How did you become the Naked Pastor and I, I get, you know, I read through your bio, your amazing bio before we started, but your own personal story would be awesome.
David:
Sure. Well, thanks first of all for having me on your show and hello everybody out there, and I really appreciate your analysis of my, my work, my art. That means a lot. It really does. I’m Canadian, so I’m in Canada right now, although I, for my Amer my American friends, I did marry an American woman. So
Wendy:
Nice.
David:
And as a result, we have three dual citizen kids. So I grew up in a home that was very Christian and first of all I was baptized as an Anglican, as a baby, but, and my dad was a policeman and he got transferred around a lot. So I went to all different kinds of churches. I call myself my own Acumenical movement because I’ve been in so many different churches and you know, we weren’t loyal to any one denomination. Just whatever was convenient and, you know, the one we enjoyed the most, that’s what we went to. But I, I became an official born again Christian when I was a teenager, and that was in a Baptist church.
And then we switched to Pentecostal. So we were, we were Pentecostals for a while. I went to Pentecostal Bible College, that’s where I met Lisa. Then I went to an evangelical seminary near Boston. And the Bible college was in Springfield, Missouri, by the way. Then we went to Boston for seminary and then to Montreal for more Seminary and Toronto for more Seminary. So I have a, a master’s in New Testament and I have diploma of ministry and I was ordained into the Presbyterian church as a pastor and stayed there for, I don’t know, maybe 10 years or so. And then I got bored and we switched to Vineyard after that.
And I was a Vineyard pastor locally here for about 15 years. And I left the ministry in 2010. So that’s my, you know, overview. My experience of church was very mixed. So it was kind of like, it was a family I wanted and needed, but at the same time I experienced a lot of spiritual abuse I would say. I had to learn how to navigate very controlling environments and pastors and leaders and so on. Actually, when I became a pastor, I joined the system that tends to perpetuate that kind of culture of control and that I continued wrestling with that reality until the point I realized the only way I could keep growing as an individual and to get free of all this oppressiveness and no longer participate in this kind of systemic dehumanization of its members.
I left, I I, I had already started my blog Naked Pastor in 2005, but in 2010 when I left the ministry, I decided to see if I could make it a full-time gig. And here I am 12 years later doing Naked Pastor full-time.
Wendy:
Wow.
David:
So, yeah, with my art and writing and videos and teaching and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That’s my story in a nutshell.
Terry:
That’s awesome. And, and describe to listeners since, you know, this is audio, obviously the, the art. Describe to them how art came into the fold here during this process and then like what, what your art is, you know, cuz art is so many different things, but, but give them, paint a picture in their head.
David:
So I I I failed to answer one question that I’ll answer right now. Yeah. Really quickly. Naked Pastor, I, I was a, a pastor and I was blogging, tons of other pastors were blogging too. I thought, I want mine to be different. I want people to see behind the curtain what really goes on in the ministry, what really goes on in the church, what really goes on in the mind and the life of the pastor. So that’s what the naked means, me just being totally honest. Yeah. Upfront, no adornments, vulnerable, transparent. And so that’s why I called myself a naked pastor. So good. And when I left the ministry in 2010, I wrestled with whether or not I should keep the name because I was no longer officially a pastor, but enough people convinced me to keep it because they claim, yeah, I’m still kind of in the role of a pastor, but I’m,
Wendy:
You are
David:
I’ve been drawing and painting my whole life. I, I never remember not drawing and painting, but cuz my dad was a painter. I love a really good cartoon, like Far Side or the gold standard for me is the New Yorker cartoons, one frame, black and white, simple and, you know, brilliant. So that’s my gold standard. That’s what I want to measure up to, you know, so that’s what kind of inspires me. There was another cartoonist who was working away doing his cartoons every day. And I thought, you know what, maybe I’m gonna try a cartoon and see what happens. And people loved it. I got more traffic, you know, they say a picture’s worth a thousand words.
So I think people really appreciate it, that they could get my message in a split second rather than having to read a thousand words. And it stuck. I mean, they, people started sharing ’em and, you know, everything. So it, it just got so popular and I’m having fun doing it, not like it’s work. So I’m having fun,
Wendy:
Yes!That’s so good.
David:
People are enjoying them. And so that’s one branch of my art, my cartoons, which are very, like you said earlier, simple black and white drawings, usually unless colors required. I have another, I call that my contentious side. And then I have my contemplative side, which are my like watercolor painting, similar to what is behind me here. And then I also do sculptures. I I do music, I do, you know, poetry, whatever. I think when you’re a creative and you tap into that deep well of creativity that each one of us has, all kinds of things can come out. So, but I do focus mostly on cartoons and watercolor painting as artistic expressions of my creativity.
Wendy:
Nice. And this is, this is a great little part from this section, the intro to your newest book, flip It Like This, which proudly sits on our coffee table. It’s the only book on our craft table. We have a lot of coffee table books. So I, I preserve the coffee table for this one. You say art is like that as opposed to words which can more easily bounce off or filter through or get stuck in the brain. Visual art seems to bypass our rational thoughts, defense mechanisms, prejudices, presumptions and biases. Sometimes art gets to the heart of the matter where a decision is made or a revelation is received. And it’s so true. It’s like these simple images you create that spark such conversation and thought patterns, you can’t unsee them.
Right? Like I think of like, you know, we go to a big church here in San Diego and some of my, our pastors sermons are great. I’m like, dang, I come outta church. I’m like, that was amazing. I don’t remember ’em exactly like the, but every, almost every single picture in this book I can remember. And it just sparks such, you know, thought patterns in me. So it is amazing how simple they are and how how much they just make you think and you can’t unsee them.
Terry:
Well, yeah, and they’re so, I mean, as, as everybody knows, it’s like there’s so much noise in the world, you know, some of the noise is worth tuning into. And some of it we all love. I mean, you know, we tune into podcasts, we to, we listen to the music we want, we do all this stuff, but then there’s all this other noise. And so, you know, your style of this one frame New Yorker style cartoon, it just, it tunes out all the noise. It gets right to the heart of the concept of the subject of what you’re trying to illustrate for that one thing. And like, like you described beautifully in your book and Wendy is elaborating on, is you totally, you have to, you sit with it, you, you receive it very quickly and you sit with it.
And so many of those things are so thought provoking cuz then the person who receives it as to the, they, they then get to process the, the thing. And a lot of times, you know, especially with this book, it’s very like, oh dang type of like, like art. And, and I mean that in a good way. It’s kind of like, oh wow, that’s the stuff that either I feel but nobody talks about or Oh wow. That like, I, I now get to empathize with somebody else that might be on the other side of, of, of this subject. And you know, there’s so many subjects that you approach, you know, in this book, many of them, I don’t know, I’d, I’d say the common theme is, is like if you were to tune out everything to do with the church, everything that quote unquote man has created around this, and you just tuned into the heart of Jesus and through that lens looked at some of these subjects and current events and things that, you know, are going on, it’s like, it’s that clear and that refined of a message.
And I think that’s why it, it it hits me personally. Yeah.
David:
Well that’s cool. Yeah. Yeah. I often think of my work as like anybody’s work. It’s a double-edged sword. So o one edge is to encourage and uplift and validate and affirm people that they have the right to live and express their authentic selves. The other edge of the sword is to challenge anything, anyone, any system that opposes that personal freedom. Yes. So that’s why some people love my cartoons and some people absolutely despise my cartoons because I am encouraging the freedom of the individual, which a lot of people think some people shouldn’t enjoy.
And then I’m challenging any systems that restrict or oppress the marginalized or you or me or, or anybody. And people, a lot of people don’t like that either. And so, but on the other hand, there are a lot of people who, who do wanna live free and wanna break free from any of the people and systems that are preventing them from living free.
Wendy:
Yes. And I, and I can relate so much to that double edge sword. Double edge sword, right? And it’s like constantly you are doing it as an artist, I’m doing it as an educator. It’s like this constant trying to like keep yourself aligned for me with like the heart of Jesus and not dip into like any type of attack or yeah. That type of engaging with like any of that, but still stand tall and advocate against all of that hypocrisy and all the stuff, right. So it’s such an interesting journey, which is a great word to bring us to. One of my first questions for you is just, I’ve seen you share a ton about becoming comfortable with this journey, right?
Like, it’s not like a, you know, all of a sudden, like again for a lot of our listeners, all of a sudden you’re gonna hear like, oh, maybe the Bible doesn’t tell me I should hit my kids and overpower them and scare the shit out of ’em every time they do something like maybe that isn’t biblical. And you start to question and then you start to look at, oh my gosh, like there are other things that make my stomach uneasy when the pastor says that. Like, like we’ve had, we’ve had some sermons where we come home and we’re like, oh God, I feel like I’m gonna throw up like, we’re not okay with this, or this doesn’t align, like, or this doesn’t feel right. Something is like, we need to dig deep and look in script like blah blah blah. There’s just this questioning that starts to happen.
So can you talk to us a little bit about the idea of becoming more comfortable with the uncomfortableness of knowing that, you know, I sometimes I say it as like being the black sheep and being like, yes, hello, I am the black sheep and I’m okay with that. You wake up in the morning and you’re like, okay, that’s, it’s okay. Right? Like, so I think some of the, your words were get get used to it being a wonderful way of life. Keep going. The goal is a peace is peace of mind and tranquility resting in the questioning, relaxing into the mystery. Right? But this idea of like deconstruction that you talk a lot about of not being that we’re like middle finger church. Like it doesn’t have to necessarily be like we’re out, we’re never doing it.
But there is exploring, there’s questioning, there’s doubting, there’s standing tall and saying, yeah, I will not pass on this harmful yeah. Belief system to my kids or whatever it may be. So that’s my first right question.
David:
Yeah. Well so your double-edged sword, one of them anyway would be encouraging parents to adopt or learn or explore a new paradigm for parenting. That would be the vocation side. The tearing downside would be challenging orthodox religious opinion about how to raise your kids, which includes hitting or you know, causing suffering or pain or you know, whatever. Yeah. So that’d be your double-edged sword. Fortunately on the side of the people you’re encouraging, there’s, there’s good news, there’s encouragement, there’s appreciation. But when you challenge the authorities or the status quo or orthodoxy or tradition, you’re gonna get a lot of hate.
And I know all about that and that’s why a lot of us are very nervous about opening our minds and hearts to questions is because we know once we start, it might not end the way others think it should. We, I think we instinctively know that I compare it to just our natural human growth. Teenagers and adolescents and and young adults instinctively know that if you’re gonna start questioning your parents or questioning your teachers or questioning the police or you’re going to, it could lead to something not very comfortable. Right?
Wendy:
Right, right. Yeah.
David:
And I think we instinctively know that spiritually, that if we start questioning it might take us down a path that might make us uncomfortable for a while. But I wrote a book a few years ago called Questions Are the Answer. Where the trick isn’t to find the answer. I discovered that it’s not finding the answer, it’s actually in the questioning. You need to become comfortable with mystery. You need to become comfortable with not finding the answer you need to become comfortable with, with questions. And that’s where your peace of mind comes not from.
I finally found the answer. Your peace of mind comes from being able to find tranquility and poise in the middle of mystery. It’s like that says in the Bible, seek and you will find. But yeah, that’s constantly telling us to seek cuz you’re, you know, there’s always that seeking and finding is always happening. It’s, that’s a way of life. Seek and you will find, seek and you will find. So it’s like once you open up your mind and your heart to the universe, to mystery, to not knowing, to dark knight of the soul, to the valley of the shadow of death or whatever you want to call it, that’s where you’ll find your peace of mind.
Wendy:
Yes. And it’s my favorite pastors always encourage questioning. Yeah. Like, those are the pastors that I love. We were just in Florida at his dad’s house and you know, kind of yeah, deep south Bible belt. Like I remember years ago we were like, oh, oh no, they had moved there and we were like, oh no, what is this church gonna be? And then we, we are just so in love with their church and their pastor and he is just always like, bring on the questions. The last time we were home there was just this amazing sermon all about questioning and the questions were so good and challenging and thought provoking and he was just wide open and
Terry:
Took ’em from everybody. It was like every corner of the room, including the kids. He answered all the kids questions. And it wasn’t even, like you said, it wasn’t even about answering them. Yeah. There was a lot he didn’t have answers for, but he took ’em anyway. It’s like, you gotta be like, that takes a lot to stand up on stage I’m sure is like, you could relate to, it’s like, yeah, ask me a question where like one of the worst feelings is like, ah, I don’t know where to go with this one, but I’m gonna do it anyways, you know?
Wendy:
Yeah. And, and some of them he didn’t even have like an answer and it was still so moving and beautiful and Christ-like, you know. So
David:
How many were there?
Wendy:
How many were there?
David:
Yeah,
Wendy:
There… Well, we were online that day and I mean, normally back when we, like before Gram, Grammy got a little sick, but there’s probably like a hundred people at Yeah. Each service there’s a contemporary service that’s figure and there’s that –
David:
Yeah. That’s what I figured. Yeah. I think there’s, I think there’s a lot of good pastors out there like that pastor, but you’re gonna find them in smaller congregations, smaller churches. Yeah.
Wendy:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What’s nice is that congregation is older, you know, and I just feel like sometimes, you know, it’s just, it’s just nice to, it’s really comforting to see that pastor doing his work down there. We just love him.
Terry:
Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah,
Wendy:
Definitely.
David:
Cool.
Wendy:
I’m gonna read this too. This was such a beautiful, something you shared in the video, a video the other day. Questioning can be questioning beliefs can be traumatic, it can feel painful, but true, true deconstruction never ends. It’s just questioning our conditioning, what we were told to believe, the status quo assumptions, adopted ideas, inherited beliefs. Don’t wish for deconstruction to endjust become more comfortable with the journey. It isn’t certainty that leads to wisdom. Wisdom. It’s actually doubt we are becoming wise by doubting and questioning. Like, boom
David:
Boy, I like the way you read that.
Terry:
Yeah.
David:
Yeah. It sounds much better than I do.
Terry:
Well what’s so cool too, you know, like, you know, thinking about like some of these words and verbiage and everything, you know, we’re talking about deconstructing and all these things, but what I think is so beautiful about like the cartoons is, is I feel like once everything’s kind of dismantled, all that’s left is like love, grace and acceptance. Like that’s like, I feel like a common theme out of almost every single thing. Like in your book here.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Terry:
It, it’s, it’s like what’s left after you get rid of all of the noise that I talked about from the world, all these people, all these things. What you’re left with is, I, I think the, the pure intention of all of this is just a loving, accepted feeling, you know, for, for everybody. And it strips away this like, exclusivity to like, some people are more accepted than others, or, or, yeah. This or that. It’s like, it’s like, no, it’s, it’s all love. Once you strip it all away, it’s all it, it’s all love. And I, and I think that’s just a, a, a beautiful thing to, to find during this journey that if, if you were looking for an answer, I hear you.
Like we, we, we gotta keep going, we gotta keep going. But if there’s a common theme or, or something, once you do start to peel these things away, you’re gonna find that at the center of it all. And it’s not in man’s culture, it’s at the center of of it all. It, it’s just love and acceptance and grace.
David:
Yeah. That’s why people say, well, after you deconstruct, you have to reconstruct. And I’m like, mm, wait, pause. You know, just, just deconstruct question everything. And just, you know, a lot of people get really uncomfortable, not surrounded with their beliefs or structures or whatever I’m saying, just give it time. Enjoy the space. I’m an open concept kind of guy. Enjoy the space and enjoy the silence. Enjoy the openness. You’ll, and when you get used to it, you realize this is where it’s at. Now I know some people who start deconstructing and maybe they leap over to a more progressive congregation or they leap over to a different religion or they leap over to atheism or they, you know, leap over into science or you know, whatever.
To me, just wait a while and just appreciate the openness, the wide open space because I’ve come to believe that we’re all one deeply connected on a fundamental level. There’s one reality that we all interpret through our own lenses, through our own paradigms, through our own worldviews. We all have our own languages that we use to try to explain it. And that seems to divide us. But it only seems to cuz it, we’re all, you know, it’s, there’s just one reality. And, and so when, when you get down where you’ve cleared away all of the stuff and you’re in that open space, just, just realize this, like, like you said, Terry, this is it.
This is what love is. This is exactly what love is. Like the sun that shines on everybody. It’s like the rain that falls on everybody. It’s like gravity that pulls everybody, everything indiscriminately. And so you’re in this place of complete openness to that, the beauty of that. Right. So yeah, I think that’s really important, a very important part of my conversation about deconstruction.
Wendy:
Wow. My gosh. That like,
Terry:
That’s probably another reason why those Marvel multiverse movies don’t make any sense. So…
Wendy:
The multiverse,
Terry:
Just a side note there.
Wendy:
Oh, I love it. That’s so good. Okay, pastor, so talk to us a little bit about fear. So in our work here at for sure, family, again, we do like a lot of family life coaching. We teach kids from a very young age, like, you know, how do you like all about basic human emotions, right? Like how to feel scared and actually move forward or to feel bravery and courage on the other side. And how to obviously not lead in your parenting with fear, right? Like what we teach is all about how to influence your little human souls to put the damn shoes on or get in the car or eat their breakfast just because you have true influence. And it’s through connection and firm kindness and strong boundaries, connection and grace and all these things, right?
Yeah. So we’re, we’re helping families to do it differently where they’re not being, they’re not raising their children with fear as the main mechanism. And so many of them are still having been raised with fear as the main mechanism. So then you bring in this idea when you start questioning, right? Like if, like I have one student right now who’s in like my high level certification program who is becoming an educator. She’s becoming a coach, but she’s in a school system where corporal punishment is legal down in the south. And her pastor highly advocates for things she is adamantly against now, right? And just doesn’t believe is in line with Jesus and, and Biblical and all these things.
But, but the fear is such a huge thing. And I’m just gonna read something that you had shared. You said you won’t be free till you beat fear. Thinking outside of what we were told to think and believe. The thinking of like, it, it can cause us to think like suspicious handling the fear of oh no, what if like, I’m wrong or there’s this internal damnation. Fear is the most effective tool to keep you in, in bounds, I think you said and in bondage.
David:
Sure.
Wendy:
Something like that. So maybe encourage listeners, like as they’re becoming more confident saying like, no, I stand against that. I won’t stand for hypocrisy, I won’t support this. Like, and not even in that aggressive of a way, but just saying like, I’m questioning it. I’m starting to be more confident moving away. Like how do we handle fear?
David:
That’s such a huge topic, but I talk about it all the time because I think that’s one of the primary emotions that a lot of people feel, especially those who are deconstructing and so on. Fear is, I think religion’s most effective tool. That’s just my opinion because it works. We have a children’s book somewhere here that we used to read to our kids many, many years ago. And it was written by an, Inuktitut, first nations person, Northern Canada, and it tells a story about these terrible monsters that lived under the ice that would eat, eat children. And, and so I, I understand why parents create those stories because they don’t want their children going out on the thin ice in the spring or in the, or too early in the winter.
Yeah. Cause they don’t want them to fall through the ice, so they terrify the kids with the monsters so they won’t go anywhere near it. And it’s the same with witches living in the woods that will kidnap you if you go in there alone or trolls living under the bridge so that you don’t, you know, go away too far from home. Like, all these things are used fear tactics to keep us in bounds and to make us behave.
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And the church is masterful at using fear to control the people. Now it might be good intentions, you know, they might think like if somebody really, really believes in hell, of course if they have any heart, they’re gonna try and save me from that.
So it comes out of a sincerity. But, but, but it’s also comes out of a need to control us. And this li you know, this, this flows into parenting. Lisa and I decided early, we have three adult children now. They’re our best friends. Like we have a wonderful, wonderful relationship, nice with them. But it took a lot of work. And it’s not the traditional kind of work of constantly being on top of them scaring them to, to, to obey and not to, you know, wander off or whatever. We made a decision early in our kids’ life lives that we were going to prefer relationship over always being right.
So immediately right there we’re abandoning fear as a mechanism for parenting. And I’m, I’m telling you, it it, doing that though produces another kind of fear because there’s nothing worse than a parent feeling that they’ve lost control of their kids. Right?
Wendy:
Right. Yes.
David:
So, but there were times when we, we were scared about that. But it’s wrong for us to convert that fear that we’re feeling into a tool to manipulate them or control them. Yes. And I know a lot of parents who’ve done that. They’re like, I’m gonna be right and I care about my kid and I’m gonna scare them, scare the hell out of them, scare the shit out of them, whatever. Yep. In order to keep them in line and they end up losing relationship with their kids. And so we chose relationship over being right all the time. And there were scary times. I would never want a parent, teenagers again.
It’s worth, but it was worth it. Cause we, we took the long view of investing them with love, investing them with the ability to understand themselves and how to be their authentic selves and how to express their authentic selves. That gets really messy, really chaotic. But the long picture is they’re now like, seriously, I’m not kidding – our closest relationships and we enjoy one another. We go on vacations together, we, you know, whatever. That’s how I think love works. It love frees. The opposite of, of what perfect love cast out fear.
Right. So if you want to love your kids fully, the fear can’t play a part.
Wendy:
Amazing. Yeah. And I just, you know, I always just wanna remind, you know, the parents who are, they start questioning or being the, the so to speak or quotes black sheep at the, at their church or their congregation when they do parent diff parent differently, right. They’re gonna get questioned. There’s gonna be this, this flare up in our minds, but might just always remind everyone that like, bravery and courage is what happens on the other side when you realize like, oh, I’m just scared right now. I’m scared that the pastor doesn’t agree with me. I’m scared that the congregation thinks I’m crazy for not just taking my kids behind the alley and, and hitting them or whooping them. Right? Like a term that is so thrown around in the church drives us nuts.
We, we were inspired by your art to make some new art. It’s actually not art, but it’s, we have new mugs. I I should have used it today. Oh, don’t says it just says Jesus, Jesus didn’t whoop kids. That’s like our first stab at being like, just fun little David Hayward inspired comedy.
David:
That’s why, that’s why deconstruction never ends because it’s, it’s, it’s an attitude and a posture of questioning. So let’s say for example, the media, we should constantly question what’s being told to us, right? You don’t
Wendy:
Yes.
David:
Don’t believe everything you read, don’t believe everything you hear. Like you, you should,
Wendy:
Yes.
David:
You should examine and analyze and, you know, discern everything that’s being fed to you. And that should never end. That’s why deconstruction never ends till my dying day, I just finished reading Isaacson’s biography of Albert Einstein. And up until his dying day, he was trying to, like, he, he, he developed the theory of general relativity and he kept believing that there was some kind of oneness behind all this sense of disorder. And, and he was constantly searching for the formula or for the theory until his dying day.
Wendy:
Wow.
David:
Until his dying day. So that’s what I’m talking about. That posture of, of curiosity. Yeah. That’s what wisdom actually is. It’s, it’s the ability to float on this sea of questions rather than being anchored on an island of exclamation marks, you know?
Terry:
Yeah. Oh, that’s awesome. And I mean, that’s so a part of, I think that paradigm shift that, that we end up in these conversations with a lot of parents is, is especially of a a, a kid like our firstborn, is there’s gonna be a lot of questions and you gotta be okay with that. And then those questions may in turn mean that I might have questions. Yes. But we’re gonna be on the journey together, like you said, the long view we’re we’re gonna do it together instead of just like, you know, this, this, this posture of like, let’s nip everything in the bud. Let’s, let’s shut this down. Let’s, let’s stop this communication, let’s stop these questions.
Don’t question me. Yeah. This is it. That’s that. Yeah. Dad knows everything. It’s a different view. And that’s scary. That creates its own set of fears for some people. But you know, I think, you know, you’re, you’re sitting here raising your, your hand high. We’re sitting here raising our, our hand high. I have a 14 year old and it’s not that it’s not scary having a 14 year old, but I’m not nearly as scared as some of these dads I look at in the eyes that, that chose to do it a different way. They are scared,
Wendy:
They’re freaking terrified,
Terry:
and they are all over their kids. I mean, they’re like private investigators. They have no relationship with them. They have, you know, they, they’re, I mean, it’s gnarly, like what’s going on. Yeah. And I look at my daughter and I’m like, she’s got this. Yeah, she’s got this and that doesn’t mean it’s all gonna be perfect, but she’s got this and I’m, you,
Wendy:
she tells us everything.
Terry:
She tells us everything. And she’s
David:
Oh, TMI. TMI we got from our kids.
Terry:
Oh Yeah, yeah.
David:
Do you have to tell us all of this
Terry:
Yeah. So you gotta be okay with that too. You gotta be good, good at kind of like just right process. Don’t react right away,
Wendy:
Then you teach later. You always teach. You always teach. Oh my gosh,
Terry:
This is probably for another episode. But I think it’s just, it’s so goes back to all of these, these things and then, you know, I just, I really, I I really hear and feel what you’re saying about this, this journey and being okay with the curiosity and the questioning. I mean, I think of even just non parenting wise, I have gotten, I’ve gotten to where I am in my career just by being curious, just by wanting to know how does that work? How I see that thing up there, how does that work? And, and if I hadn’t have done that, I wouldn’t have gotten very far. So why wouldn’t that logic apply to some of the most important things in our life? Like our, our kids, our family, and our faith.
David:
Yeah. Yeah. So let’s translate that over, like with the kids to us as adults in the church. If churches had the same attitude that you were discussing just then towards its members. And, and, and I tried to do that as a pastor. Listen, I’m going to let you drive your own car. You drive your yes. The own car of your life. You’re the master of your destiny, or you’re the captain of your own ship. So, but I’m here for you and we’ll do this together. And I actually had people sit down in front of me in my pastor study and say, we pay you to tell us what to believe and how to,
Wendy:
Right!
David:
Like, I’m not kidding. I’m not kidding.
Wendy:
Right.
David:
And, and a lot of people don’t like that kind of freedom. It’s scary. They want to be told exactly how to get to heaven. But when you open up the lives of the people, you, you say, listen, you’re, you’re free and, and we’re here to support you in that. You be your authentic self. I’ll be my authentic self. Let’s try not to hurt one another. Let’s figure this out. And so how can I be free without violating your freedom? How can you be free without violating my freedom? I think that’s an important dynamic that churches should, you know, work with. And I think we would see a lot less people migrating away from the church if the church just instead of saying, “you shall not pass!”
Wendy:
Right.
David:
And allowing people to explore. I think people might leave for a while and come back around or
Wendy:
Yeah.
David:
Or, they might stay and co you know, be like a disturbance in the community.
Wendy:
OhYeah, yeah. Agitator.
David:
Yeah. Agitator. But I, I think if the church allowed us to grow beyond adolescence in our spirituality to be able to question everything, authority rules, you know, everything that it would come back around, you know, we’d come back around. So like, like kids would, their parents if their, if their parents were loving and caring and cared more about their personality and personal authenticity and freedom than them measuring up to their standards. Right?
Wendy:
Yeah. It’s so true. It’s so true, man. Oh, we could literally chat for hours. Terry has a photo shoot today, so we have to go soon. So I’m gonna ask one last question and then I want you to tell listeners everywhere where the book’s on Amazon, right. So we can put your book. Okay. We’ll put your book on our shop page and we’ll make sure you tell everyone, like all the places they can find you and everything. So I know you, you’ve shared so much how your art creates this range of response, right? Everyone from like, people either, some people are enraged by it, some people are validated, some people are enlightened, everything in between.
And you share how your, your artwork is polarizing, right? Like similar to artwork here at Fresh Start family. It’s, it is po like parenting is polarizing. People get all jacked up about it. And so when it comes to, and, and I’ll read this one last thing and then I’m gonna ask you, how do you, how do you h how do you keep this posture of love and kindness and grace and all these things like Christ-like posture amongst like haters and the attack that comes so freaking heavy by the scary Christians. I think that’s the term I like the most. I’ve tried like toxic evangelical circles, but then that kind of hates on all evangelicals, but scary Christians is one that I’ve always associated with.
But you say in your book or somewhere you said this: “Affirmation, acceptance, inclusion and love have always been offensive to some people, especially those who consider themselves the gatekeepers of who’s in and who’s out, who belongs and who doesn’t, who meets the criteria and who doesn’t. Things haven’t changed much in the 20 years that I’ve been drawing.” So can you tell us, pastor, when you get this hate stuff, like how do you just keep yourself centered to respond in this way that feels like you’re still withholding your values of being that double-edged sword, like this strong double-edged sword where you’re like encouraging the heck out of people, but you’re like, I will not stand or tolerate hypocrisy or whatever it may be.
Wendy:
Maybe just end us off with that if you could.
David:
Okay. You keep calling me pastor and it makes me smile. So it’s kind of funny.
Wendy:
Yeah, you are.
David:
I’ll I’ll tell you, I’ll be honest. When I first started getting criticism or hate or whatever it gets under your skin, sometimes over a while you develop, there’s two ways you can either develop a thick skin and just not care. On the other hand, you can develop empathy for the people who are attacking you and realize, you know, if I were in their shoes, I’d probably say the same thing and, and may maybe I have even in the past, you know?
Wendy:
Right.
David:
So for me now, it’s more of a, it doesn’t take work to not respond with anger or, you know, whatever. It, it’s just like, you know, here, here we go again. You know, kinda thing. Yeah. Just, you know, I feel empathy for a lot of them. Some people I try to respond to, but I’ve, if I feel there’s some violence going on there, I’ll, I’ll block them. Especially if they’re showing violence to other people in the conversation on Instagram or whatever. I don’t care if they insult me as much as if they are trying to scare other people or bully other people, I’ll, I’ll definitely block them. That’s why my Instagram community is pretty fun place to be.
I’m pretty tightly to make sure the bullies don’t get in, or if they do, they don’t stay. And, and so that’s basically how I do it. Like when I, when I say I really do believe that we’re experiencing one reality and that we’re all connected on a deep and fundamental level, when somebody’s attacking me, they’re, they’re a part of my family. Even though they don’t think so, they’re, they’re the division’s in their mind, not in reality. So I, I just have to remember that the, the division, the theological differences, the words, the ideas they have are, are different. But that doesn’t mean that we’re separate. So that’s, that’s how I respond.
Wendy:
Yeah. So encouraging. David, thank you. Thank you so much for spending this time with us. I am so excited for this episode. We have like, so many episodes recorded and backlogged, but this one I’m gonna bump up in the queue cause I just can’t wait. Yeah. I can’t wait for listeners to hear it. So tell everyone where can they come find you? Where can they purchase your art support you? Like I said, we’ll make sure we put this latest one, flip it like this on our website, we have a shop page that we curate our favorite books and things and just in general, how can we support your ministry and your mission and your your art?
David:
Okay, so my book, in my new book, it just came out last month Flip it Like This. It’s my “best of” cartoon book. So I have 10 books out now. This is my 10th book, but I, I had to go through 4,000 cartoons and come up with 130 that were the best of. And it is based on my preference, but mostly the audience response, which ones people love the most. And there’s like 15 never before seen in the book. So you can get it on Amazon if you don’t like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Indie Books, anywhere books are sold. So, and then you can find me at nakedpastor.com, that’s home base, but I’m on all social media everywhere, so you can find me, you know, on Twitter, on Facebook, on LinkedIn, on Pinterest, on Instagram, on TikTok.
I’m everywhere. And I’m really, really good at responding to people who reach out. So
Wendy:
Your emails are great too, David. I, my inbox stacks up to like 500 at, at the blink of an eye. But your email is your, your emails. I love reading them. And so-
David:
Oh the email,
Wendy:
Your emails all, all your, so your, your places they can find you great. But like your actual email list. I don’t know if I got on that cuz I was, I buy your art. I we’re looking at one on my wall right here of Jesus slipping the tables. That’s my favorite. But like when, if people wanna actually get on your email list, I’m sure they can do it on, on the website. Right? Because your messaging every week is something I look forward to and it’s a quick, easy, but I just love your, your newsletter so to speak, I guess is what it would be called.
David:
With the dad joke. I include a that joke every week
Wendy:
Yes, which
David:
Oh, perfect. Perfect.
Wendy:
Terry, yeah, I’ve forwarded that to you before. You gotta make sure you get yourself on there. Awesome.
David:
Yeah, so my art, my cartoons, my books, everything. Go to naked pastor.com and they’re all there, you know, available. And I’m also on YouTube I mention, I forgot to mention. Nice. But yeah, thanks for having me on and you guys are a lot of fun.
Wendy:
Awesome. Thanks Pastor. Thank you.
All right, families, that is a wrap, but before we part ways for the day, I have a question for you. Do you follow me over on Instagram yet? If not, will you come find me and say hello? I’m @FreshStartWendy and I love to create a ton of free educational tips and resources for you guys on Instagram, so it’s a great place to come hang out with me, send me a DM after you follow my account and just say hello. I really think it’s a great way to get to know so many of you and we can chat a little bit in the DMs. I’m even, I’m known to send some voice memos here and there when you guys have questions or are just letting me know how our work has helped you and your family.
So I would love to connect with you over there. And as always, we welcome shares. If you have been really enjoying this episode or any of the Fresh, Start Family Show episodes that you’ve been listening to lately, go ahead and just screenshot right now on your phone and head over to Instagram and just share to your stories, letting your friends and family know how much you are really enjoying our podcast. And it just really helps us out when you do that. And again, it gives us a way to connect over on that platform. So I can get to know you and your family a little bit, so head on over, share on Instagram inside your stories, making sure that you’re posting me or that you are tagging me, I should say, @FreshStartWendy.
And I really look forward to connecting with you guys over there. All right, well as always, thanks for listening, you guys. I am so grateful to each and every one of you who supports our shows and who cares so deeply about your families. I’ll see you in the next episode.
For links and more info about everything we talked about in today’s episode, head to freshstartfamilyonline.com/151.
Stella:
For more information, go to freshstartfamilyonline.com. Thanks for listening, families, have a great day.
