In this down-to-earth episode of the Fresh Start Family Show, Wendy sits down with nervous system expert Sarah Tacy to explore how healing and regulating our nervous systems can transform both our parenting and personal lives. Sarah, who brings a wealth of knowledge from her work with Kate Northrup’s program, shares how finding balance within ourselves is the key to guiding our kids with more patience and love.
Wendy kicks things off by sharing her own journey of transformation under Sarah’s guidance, showing how slowing down and finding inner peace has changed her life in incredible ways. The conversation flows into practical, relatable advice, like understanding the “thermostat” vs. “thermometer” analogyโhow parents can set a calm tone in their homes that naturally helps kids feel secure and behave better.
Sarah also dives into navigating tricky situations like double binds and the sacred third, offering simple exercises to help parents release tension and create a more relaxed, harmonious environment. Together, Wendy and Sarah unpack how familiar patterns can either hold us back or set the stage for healthier, happier families. If youโre looking for real, actionable tips on becoming a more grounded, compassionate parent, this episode is a must-listen!
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Episode Highlights:
- Thermostat vs. Thermometer: Understanding the concept of being a steady, regulating presence (thermostat) rather than reacting to external chaos (thermometer) is crucial for effective parenting.
- Double Binds and the Sacred Third: These strategies help resolve seemingly impossible situations by opening up new, creative solutions.
- Familiar vs. Optimal: Recognizing that our bodies prefer the familiar, even if itโs not the best, and learning to navigate through the tension field towards optimal behavior.
- Co-Regulation and Interdependence: The importance of parents being stable, supportive figures that children can co-regulate with, fostering a sense of safety and strong interdependence.
- Exercises for Regulation: Practical tips such as tightening and releasing fists to stimulate physiological changes that help in achieving a state of calm and open-mindedness.
Resources Mentioned:
Sarahโs website
Threshold Moments Podcast
Follow Sarah on Instagram
Catch this episode on Youtube!
Kate Northrup’s – Relaxed Money Course
Catch Wendy and Sarah on an IG Live
Not able to listen or prefer to read along? Hereโs the transcript!
0:00:03 – (Wendy): Well, hey there, listeners, and welcome to a new episode of the Fresh Start Family show. I’m so happy to be here with Sarah Tacy today. Sarah, welcome to the show. We are so happy that you are here.
0:00:14 – (Sarah): Thank you for having me.
0:00:16 – (Wendy): Yay, Sarah. Oh, my goodness. I have had the honor of being in nervous system healing sessions with you and regulation sessions with you now for, I think it’s been eight months through Kate Northrup’s program, and I really am not exaggerating when I feel like my life has been changed. And you have been such a sweet addition to my life. And I. And I remember when I first started doing this with you, I attended a session, and I was like, this is, like, slow and really, like, out there. And I was like, what is happening?
0:00:55 – (Wendy): I just felt this, like, initial, like, this is not me. And I’m very, like. And be very spiritual and woo woo. And I just remember there was such resistance in the beginning to, like, coming to a session together where we really slowed down and, like, leaned into kind of just. It’s just what your sessions are. It’s, like, hard to explain unless. Unless you’re in them. And now I have grown to just crave my time with you. And you bring such peace to my spirit when I’m with you. And what you teach is just so profound when it comes to nervous system healing and regulation.
0:01:32 – (Wendy): And I know today we’re going to talk so much about double binds and the sacred third and really just so much more that we have on the docket, but it really is just such an honor to be here with you today. You have really changed my life, and I’m just enjoying every second that I get to soak up your knowledge and your light. So thank you so much for being here.
0:01:54 – (Sarah): Thank you. Thank you for having me. And I want to say that someone else recently, I was at an event at a friend of mine who was holding a big ceremony, and somebody came up and she’s like, oh, I’ve seen you and I’ve experienced you in relaxed money. And this person had a very similar experience that the first session was like, ouch. Kind of like, oh, this slowness is really hard. But how life changing that element was, it was both a thing of, this is uncomfortable, but I think this is exactly what I need.
0:02:29 – (Sarah): Almost like when you’re doing a workout that it’s hard to get through, or even yoga classes in the middle of every yoga class, they be like, wait, why am I doing this? But I am often, it’s like my body is called to it, there’s both like, oh, this is hard. And this feels like, I know it’s necessary. And so I’m going to keep showing up and how often the slow is hard. And I, as a parent, I can do this, like, in spaces with adults. As a parent, I think that is sometimes, like, the hardest part of parenting for me is possibly the slow.
0:03:09 – (Sarah): I might be in the middle of doing something that feels really important or time sensitive and, mom, can you come look at this? Mom, I have this. Let’s play on the swings even longer or taking an hour to get clothes on and brush teeth to get out the door. And so practicing slow has so many important pieces for my own nervous system. But when I can be embodied and start to recognize the difference between a chronic state of momentum and choice of like, oh, actually right now, I can go see their project and we can spend some more time on the swings.
0:03:59 – (Sarah): There can also clearly be boundaries of, like, no, we must get to school.
0:04:02 – (Wendy): Yes.
0:04:03 – (Sarah): But having a little bit more choice in the pace, my girls get to feel more often of, oh, I’m safe and my mom is present with me. I’m not perfect with this. This is a huge practice for me. Uh, but I think that slow is something most bodies fear because of the way our society has had us move for the majority of our lives.
0:04:30 – (Wendy): It’s so true. And it just feels like it’s exponentially quickening, like the device world. And, like, if you want an answer to something, you just get it in the literally 5 seconds when you google. And right now it’s like, I’ve been, like, spending a little time getting to know and training, like, chat gbt to, like, actually help me with my business and some things that I need. And it’s just so wild how these days, it’s like we are increasing our speed of life with so many things that, of course, that carries into our life when we’re triggered. And it just feels like, especially in parenting, that this should be something that should take a 20 seconds, like it does to Google. How do you get a kid to eat their vegetables? How do you discipline a child after they’ve hit their sister? Right. Like, and it’s just.
0:05:23 – (Wendy): It’s becoming more and more foreign to slow down and feel safe, like, actually stepping outside and taking a moment to, like, think about how we want to handle the challenge. Right. And so it just feels like it’s compounding fast. And so your work is just so important to. To create the rhythm of practice because we all know that’s how you build a skill set. Like, you don’t just learn about something and then the next day it’s like, great.
0:05:57 – (Wendy): Got that. It’s like you really have to show up and go to the gym for a year or train. We were just chatting before we started to record about my daughter, now that’s almost 17, and actively pursuing a d one beach volleyball scholarship. And I’ve watched her train five, six days a week for, like, since the third grade to get where she’s at now. Right? And. And she jokes that she really wants to grow abs, and she knows that in order to grow those abs, it’s not going to happen overnight. She’s been strength training for about a year now, in addition to her regular, you know, Vega volleyball program. But it just takes time. And so to create that safety and to create the practice and to have such a strong mentor in that space, it’s is just. Is just wonderful. And, um.
0:06:44 – (Wendy): And also, Sarah, I will. It’s interesting what happens with you that I would love to, like, kick off this conversation with. Um, just so I. Cause I’ve always just been so curious, and I know I’ve learned about the idea of someone holding the thermostat of, like, you know, and maybe you can explain that concept a little bit. But when I am with you, I just naturally slow down. It’s not like when I get with you, I’m. You’re like, okay, wendy, slow down.
0:07:13 – (Wendy): You’re going to slow your speech and your breathing, but something happens with you that I just naturally. And so is this co regulation, which is what we all want to do with our children, which we know is impossible to do if we are still the thermostat that is, like, catastrophizing and in that non regulated nervous system state where we feel like a bear is chasing us. So, of course our child is not going to feel safe calming down or self regulating or taking a deep breath when we are not holding that thermostat. So could you just maybe start us with explaining that concept and help me understand why I feel so calm and safe in your presence, even though we’re on Zoom, we’re not even in the same room right now as we’re recording.
0:08:02 – (Sarah): Yes, I’m just taking a little note here. I was first really intrigued as you were telling the story about your daughter and how our society would say, d one athlete, you can spend all your time training, and we are going to support you, and we are going to celebrate you and imagine, and, like you, you’re not going to grow abs you got to work for your abs. You spend time on your abs six days a week on skills. I want to include, literally, like, a lot of skill training, a lot of weightlifting.
0:08:39 – (Sarah): Imagine. So John Chitty is one of, I want to say one of the founding fathers. Like, there are many pieces of people who have really brought together some core principles of this nervous system work. And one of his first practitioner skills is presence. And so could you imagine if we valued presence the way we value getting a higher education, being an elite athlete, if we spent that same time, and that could be like going for a walk. I’m not even saying that you must then sit for a meditation.
0:09:21 – (Sarah): And you maybe heard me say in one of our last sessions, for some people that might actually be taking a drum and beating it really hard, or I like yelling a song at the top of your lungs or humming so quietly. There are many different ways to work with our nervous system so that we can be more embodied, but that is a state of presence. When I am in the role of spaceholder, just as many of your listeners may be in the role of parent, I am very clear that my role is presence.
0:09:56 – (Sarah): My role is stability. And just like a parent who goes to meet a child who’s crying, co regulation is going to happen. We just don’t know who’s going to win out. So either the one who is going over to care and be present, their nervous system is the most steady and consistent in that, and the child starts to regulate towards them, or the child’s nervous system, that is. Maybe they’re whining, maybe they’re screaming, maybe they’re saying things that are touching on your inner child, and maybe their nervous system wins out. And then suddenly you’re like, I said, stop or come back.
0:10:41 – (Wendy): I’m regulating to you. Damn it.
0:10:44 – (Sarah): Yeah. So, again, going back to. So I am a parent of an eight and a half year old and a four and a half year old, and my nervous system doesn’t always win. There are times where I have to step aside or I’m lucky enough that my husband might come in. There are times where we might switch off. Like, they got me. Your turn.
0:11:09 – (Wendy): Oh, good. I’m so glad to hear that’s good for you. That happens to you even though you’re like this highly trained Zen master.
0:11:18 – (Sarah): And so what you’re experiencing and what I’ve heard from other people that experience, sometimes with me in spaces as spaceholder, is a resonance. We’re starting to. I’m holding steady in myself, and there’s something in you there’s a part of you that knows that, and it starts to vibrate that as well. And sometimes it could be like the person with the highest intention, the person with the highest focus, with the highest clarity, might be the one who gets to hold the thermostat. And when you say thermostat, there’s this idea of the thermostat or the thermometer, and a thermostat stays steady. So if the environment around it changes, it sets off air to keep bringing the environment back to its level.
0:12:13 – (Sarah): If you were the thermometer and the kid is losing, like, having really big feelings.
0:12:19 – (Wendy): Yeah.
0:12:20 – (Sarah): And then you’re going to read their really big feelings and say, actually, now I’m 98 degrees, because that’s the temperature of what I was just placed in. Right. And so the goal, which we just, I think, have to give ourselves grace over and over again, is that we get to help stabilize to the point we want. And maybe I’ll say one more thing about the thermostat, which is something that Kate often says in relaxed money is our thermostat level is often set at what our nervous system, our body, our system knows to be its normal.
0:13:04 – (Sarah): So if we grew up in chaos, it’s going to want to be in chaos unless it’s had practice and repetition of a different way. And so that is something to be aware of, is having places and spaces to have repetitions of building into a new reality.
0:13:29 – (Wendy): Yes. And, you know, listeners, to be clear, it’s like, when we think back, it’s not that our childhoods were all chaos all the time. Like many people say, well, I had a great childhood, right, but it’s specifically chaos or unsafeness when conflict arises. Right. When somebody is not. When a human is not doing what another human wants or a human has made a mistake, like, how was that handled when you were growing up? Right. Like, what was that environment?
0:14:02 – (Wendy): And so learning about that concept has just been so interesting to know. And one of my favorite phrases is, and this is to use with children and to use with ourselves, is, this makes sense. I’m not crazy. There’s nothing wrong with me. Like, it makes sense that I absorb that, that I am most comfortable with, that, even though it doesn’t make logical sense, it makes sense why my body, or my nervous system, so to speak, is comfortable, like wanting to fix stuff fast or lay the smack down or raise my voice.
0:14:38 – (Wendy): Because my history is that I, and I think a lot, a huge section of my students mirror my story is we just didn’t quite realize how reactive we were and uncomfortable not getting what we want until we had the honor of raising a little strong willed human. So a lot of our clients, the reason why they enter into this work, I think a lot of parents don’t end up doing parenting classes or expanding their toolkit if they don’t have a strong willed kid, because you can kind of get away with it, right? Like, the kid’s not going to break your back, so to speak. But if you’ve been blessed with a strong willed kid like you, just so many people end up on their knees just wondering, like, how did I get here? How did I become this yelling, punishing, door slamming, grist grabbing.
0:15:26 – (Wendy): Someone who just catastrophizes and shames my child. I always said I was in college, I was the most positive, bubbly person. I still am. But it wasn’t until I had this little strong willed toddler that my nervous system started to show its wear and tear that I now have learned that it makes sense that I wasn’t crazy. I wasn’t a bad mom. I am not a bad mom. I just have a lot of unconditioning to do, so to speak. And as our, as I often use the word frazzled or rattled, it feels very unsafe to be in conflict, especially, I think, when you’re in power.
0:16:05 – (Wendy): But anyways, so that’s. So, that’s so fascinating to hear you talk about all that, Sarah. And so let’s. Let’s go ahead and discuss what the double bind is and the sacred third, because our parents listening, many of them are like, cool. I want to be the thermostat, not the thermometer. So, like, I want one of my favorite authors. Her name is Elr Nos. She has a quote that’s, you know, I’m probably not gonna say it exactly right. But it’s like, our job as parents is to bring peace instead of, is to add calm to the chaos instead of, like, adding to the chaos, essentially. But it feels like a double bind because it’s like, I must stop yelling.
0:16:46 – (Wendy): And especially after parents enter into my world where they start to bring loving awareness around how to, it really just is never going to work if you expect your child to be more responsive and walk away when their brother crushes their Lego tower instead of smacking them or screaming in their face. Right. Like, it’s just never going to work if you are modeling yelling or if you are, like, being aggressive or using shame or pressure, overpowering. Right. We say the classic hand me down parenting tactics are external methods, which are fear, force, bribery, and rewards.
0:17:20 – (Wendy): And so to really step into a full empowered state as a parent, you are going to want to help yourself first and heal yourself and get to a place where you are behaving in a way that you’re asking your child to behave. And so that loving awareness builds in the beginning. But parents, I think, struggle so much with this double bind of, like, okay, well, I must stop yelling. I must stop being so reactive. I must stop seeing my child in this way, but I can’t because I’ve been taught my whole life that a child needs to have instant obedience. We come from a lot of families who heal from a religious trauma background of being force fed this concept of instant obedience. And if not, there’s going to be pain and humiliation involved or that people will judge me or that I will come across permissive or I’m just not capable.
0:18:13 – (Wendy): I’ve tried, and it’s like I just can’t. My hand grabs or smacks or whatever it may be. So will you teach us about the double bind and the sacred third? And I know this concept just really opened my eyes to what was possible when I. When I identified what it is. So if you could help us with that.
0:18:36 – (Sarah): Yeah, I would love to. I’m finding that I want to rewind to a past part and then come back to this double bind.
0:18:43 – (Wendy): Please.
0:18:44 – (Sarah): I want to add a possibility. When you were talking about how you were bubbly in college and then had a strong willed kid, I love that you brought that in because I definitely have a very strong willed kid, and it was confusing to me because I was a very easy kid. I was just what would make your life better? Mom and dad and, you know, definitely a people pleaser. But it brought me so much joy. So I just didn’t understand somebody who was just, like, not there to please me like there were.
0:19:21 – (Sarah): But I just want to say so that there could be parents that respond to that with yelling. And I also want to speak to any parent out there who actually goes into a freeze and it can come across as being peaceful, but inside it feels like being helpless. And so I just want to put that out there as a possibility that people could look at some parents and go like, oh, they’re so peaceful. But if you’re a parent who’s feeling that way, but you’re also actually feeling helpless.
0:19:53 – (Sarah): Just wanted to give space for the other end of the spectrum that’s having same experience, different response, still out of the range of regulation.
0:20:03 – (Wendy): Yeah. And that often will lead a parent into the permissive land, wherever I. You just freeze and you end up being like, okay, fine, here’s the chocolate or the cookie, or, fine, you don’t have to wear shoes, because the frozen state, often, we find, ends up entering into the permissive land, which really can wreak havoc on a family, too.
0:20:27 – (Sarah): Yes. We could also go on a whole tangent on that, but I’m going to answer your double buying question first, and then we’ll see if there’s room for that. Yeah. Okay. So I think you named a double bind really well. There’s a good chance that that is a new phrase for some of the listeners. So it is often marked as a situation in which you feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, and it seems like there’s no way out, and it seems like you have an either or situation, and you’re not seeing a third option, you’re not seeing nuanced choice.
0:21:04 – (Sarah): The phrase is often, I must, I can’t. So, as Wendy just said, I must stop yelling. I can’t stop yelling, or they won’t listen to me. They’re not getting anything done. It doesn’t seem like they’re not hearing me. And the way my teacher, Bridgette Vixens, showed me the double bind is that she takes her two fists. And this is where, actually, physiology can help us to think differently. If you make two fists and you tighten them really strong and you take a moment just to feel your breath, this part, I’d say perhaps that I added to it because I love emotional anatomy. So if you just take your fist, squeeze them really strong, and notice where your breath goes.
0:21:55 – (Sarah): Wendy, where do you feel your breath?
0:21:59 – (Wendy): I think it often goes up to, like, my upper chest and my neck and, like, my jaw and my shoulders go up.
0:22:06 – (Sarah): Beautiful. Yeah. So when we make a fist, which is what we would do if we were in fight, any physiological change we make has hormonal shifts, has nervous system shifts. So just by making fists, we start to bring ourself into a double bind territory, and then we can put our fists together. So, um, I’m going to put mine pinky to pinky. My thumbs are further away from each other, and I can look at the hands and be like, look at my left hand and go, ugh, okay, I must stop yelling.
0:22:42 – (Sarah): And part of that, I’m going to, like, couple that. There’s probably some shame there. Like, if I yell, I’m a bad parent. If I yell, they’re going to be in therapy talking about me in 20 years from now. If I yell, I failed the program and the other one’s like, but I can’t stop because they won’t listen to me, and maybe they’re even in danger and they really need to turn off the tv. And so you have these two things, and instead of trying to bypass either of them, we’re going to begin to open up our hands and look at our hands and look at both things as being true.
0:23:16 – (Sarah): And I might take away the all or nothing and just go like, I really want to stop yelling, and I look over at my left hand. So you might not do this in the moment that you’re yelling, right. This is something you might like, step as I really want to stop yelling, and then I’m going to look over at the other hand. They don’t seem to be listening to me, and I could go back to the first one. And as I’m doing this, I start, like, bringing one hand down and the other and kind of, like, weighing them back and forth and really looking at them like they matter.
0:23:49 – (Sarah): And what I find, again, physiologically, as soon as your hands open, you start coming out of the fight or flight response, you might notice. Yeah. So if you notice your breath, I may have guided that a little too much. If you notice your breath with your hands open, where is it now?
0:24:10 – (Wendy): For you, it’s, like, lower in my upper tummy or. Yeah, tummy, yeah.
0:24:21 – (Sarah): And for me, it’s also lower and it’s more horizontal, so I can feel it going wide in my lower ribs and a little bit to my back.
0:24:30 – (Wendy): That’s so sad.
0:24:34 – (Sarah): So now I’m like, okay, I don’t want to yell. And around that, I can recognize, like, I really love my children, and I really want them to know how much I love them. And I really can feel into that love right now. And I can look over at, like, oh, and they’re not listening. I wonder. Now, these are the one I wonder statements which activate your reticular activating system in your brain, which may help you to see possibilities you wouldn’t see before. I wonder.
0:25:08 – (Sarah): I wonder what would help them hear me. I wonder if there’s anything I need to hear. And as I go back and forth, instead of a rock and a hard place, I start to learn more things. I start to learn, like, oh, I really love my kids, and I really want them to feel best. I wonder if I am not hearing something. I wonder if there’s a way that I can. And so I start asking more questions. And then as I approached it again, when I approach with curiosity, we might find that there are a lot of micro answers.
0:25:45 – (Sarah): I love to say that there’s a sacred third. And sometimes I could give you some examples in a moment of when I’ve had a really clear, oh, here’s a sacred third. Like, here’s a third option. I thought there were two, but there are three. And then the third option, it’s a win win scenario. So Ray Castellino, who, again, was one of these founding fathers, who is pre and perinatal and had these philosophies of, if you can do these seven things as the one carrying the baby, and then in family units, your child’s going to grow up feeling really well supported with a regulated nervous system. And one of the first principles is mutual support and cooperation, which means that it’s a win win.
0:26:32 – (Sarah): So instead of, like, the child wins or I win, or no one’s winning, as I start to come to nuance, which we can only come to in a state of regulation, there’s a possibility that we all win.
0:26:48 – (Wendy): Yes. Which is so new to so many people because they, you know, many people are trained that that’s, like, a weak way of parenting. Sharing power is actually makes you weak. Right. But obviously, we live in a different world where we are learning that that’s actually safe and it’s effective and it’s smart. And, as you said, raises human souls to have settled, healthy nervous systems, right. Where they are heard and valued and honored.
0:27:19 – (Wendy): And in the end, it’s like, it is too much on our shoulders when we think we have to do it all and control these little humans. In reality, we do need their help. And human souls, in my experience, they have such a strong need to feel powerful, to belong, to feel valued, that they love, to help. If you can empower them to be part of the solution, a lot of times they will cooperate easier, be redirected easier. All the things.
0:27:50 – (Wendy): But that idea of the sacred third coming from within or through your relationship with God is so beautiful, because I think a lot of us, when we’re studying under someone, you mentioned something where some of the shame part of it was like, oh, no, am I going to be judged? I do think probably a lot of my students and I know this from being in some beautiful, intimate, in person classes together, where they’ve said, sometimes I just worry that you’ll judge me, Wendy, if you found out that I’m doing this still, after being with you for two years, I’m still doing something that I highly regret. Right.
0:28:29 – (Wendy): But there’s those little thoughts of, like, what would Wendy do? Or somebody needs to tell me, or I need to remember a strategy. And instead, as you go through that, I just remember how much innate wisdom we have within and that we’re capable of receiving when we stay in the settled nervous system state. Or I at least come back down to a safe place versus that scary zone of, oh, my gosh, the kids are literally going to kill each other. The neighbor’s going to judge me. They’re going to grow up to be entitled brats, and this all means I’m failing, which is the unconscious, subconscious, whatever you want to call them, that without awareness, they just flood the body like poison.
0:29:16 – (Wendy): Right? And so, as I hear you describe that, it’s just. And I never heard this, like, double fist, maybe. Maybe I missed that in the beginning, but, like, that just feels like it’s another toolkit, part of a toolkit that we can use, that where you’re, like, literally doing an exercise that you can do any time of the day to tighten and then release and just that in itself, changing the physiology and tapping into that different part of the brain to create safety, and then that’s where the creativity flows.
0:29:48 – (Wendy): And then all of a sudden, you’re like, well, I guess we could do this. I could, you know, and you said the word, so, and. And I wonder, those were two of your biggest things that I love. Would. Would you add something like, this, make sense why I’m here? Or is that helpful? Or.
0:30:07 – (Sarah): No, when you’re doing the double bind work, to say, this makes sense. Yeah.
0:30:11 – (Wendy): Why I’m so triggered or why not? Yeah.
0:30:16 – (Sarah): My teacher, her phrase is of course. And I feel like. And it’s not necessarily for double binds. It’s just when I’m working with somebody and they may be like, oh, man. And when I was, like, in the hardest part of my life and I could barely get out of bed, like, I smoked two cigarettes a day. Like. Like, first of all, of course you were in bed, and of course you had those cigarettes. Like, you. These things saved your life at a time where there were no more resources and you made it through. And here you are having new choices and new capacity. Right? Like, there is the. Of course.
0:30:56 – (Sarah): And it’s. To me, it’s the same thing as saying, that makes so much sense, makes sense worse. And it’s like that little. Probably that little kid in us that maybe didn’t get that, who got the. Like, why would you do that? Why would you throw your brother’s toys instead of, like, oh, my God, of course you feel so powerless in this. It seems to me you probably do you feel powerless? Like, I’m not finding the right words right now, but I find a lot of times my kids might act out when they’re feeling powerless, and then they’re trying to find a way, like, their bodies are trying to find a way to feel empowered, and it might be through throwing something or something they say or using their size.
0:31:40 – (Sarah): So, I mean, I think those are always helpful. And when you’re looking at the two things to be true, to throw in the verbiage that would help us understand this is totally normal. It’s like, loving, compassionate language. And when we can give ourselves that, that is what our kids are receiving. So my husband and I work with a parenting specialist every Friday, but really, we’re just doing work ourselves.
0:32:08 – (Sarah): Yeah. Yeah. It’s funny because you maybe wouldn’t know it because we actually almost never talk about our kids. It’s often more about our childhood or our patterning or what’s happening now. And where does that pattern come from? So, truly, we’re doing all nervous system work. And he said, when your child is acting up, if you had cameras in your house, it may be like a half an hour before that. You may have had body language that was either stressed or you frowned. And their body is reading, I am not safe, so I’m going into fight or flight.
0:32:47 – (Sarah): And so his whole thing was like, it’s so much like he barely gives us parenting advice. It’s more their body is reading your body, and then you make up stories about why they’re doing the things, and you try to give them context so that they understand their feelings. But we are the thermostat, and they are reading us, and then they’re amplifying what they’re reading. And then from there, who is going to be the thermostat at that point? Who is amplifying it?
0:33:16 – (Sarah): Or do we bring ourselves back down to the place that we want them to feel safe? The double binds using the hands. If you are actually feeling that in that moment, and you’re like, well, I can’t walk through the whole double bind exercise. Thomas Hanna. I believe his work came out, like, 1950s to 1970s, and he has a book called somatics, and he talks about sensory motor amnesia and how these patterns in our bodies, they turn on to protect us. And over time, we might think that we’re aging because we get stiff or we get.
0:33:51 – (Sarah): But really, they’re just old patterns that hold on and start creating soreness. Then we can’t say, just relax, just like you said to me, wendy, like, I don’t come on and tell people to just relax. Right? Instead, what you do is you voluntarily override the involuntary. So you actually would engage the muscles even more and tighten, tighten, tighten, tighten. And once you are voluntarily tightening instead of involuntarily tightening, then there’s choice.
0:34:21 – (Sarah): So when we use our hands to do the double bind scenario, we voluntarily tighten. We, like, recognize that we’re in a tight place. Then we relax, the hands open, and our physiology is going to affect what we can see, and we can start to just back and forth. What else is available? What other choices do we have?
0:34:41 – (Wendy): That’s so cool. And I just. I love to hear that your parenting coach just always supports you. It’s so true. Sometimes I’m like, my students have got to be like, can we get back to strategy? You know, and we have all the strategy in the world inside of our libraries and our lessons, but most of our coaching sessions that we do are a lot of that kind of personal work. So that’s so cool to hear. Well, that all makes so much sense, and you just make it so easy to understand, Sarah. And let’s talk a little bit about the concept that I know you wanted to cover is the familiar and the unfamiliar and just feeling.
0:35:23 – (Wendy): We touched on it a little bit, but just let’s riff on that a little bit more so we can really just normalize how it works and why it. Again, why it makes sense that the unfamiliar feels so dangerous and, like, our body is just knee jerk rejection or resistance. And again, most of our families, it’s like, I hear it, fresh start family. When I founded this organization, my and I created my business plan, it’s like, my vision was to make this type of firm and kind, connection based, relationship based parenting, like, commonplace.
0:35:57 – (Sarah): Right?
0:35:58 – (Wendy): Like, you would get this information in high school or college 101 classes. Like, everyone learns how to use connection based positive psychology to influence other humans to do what you want, because, you know, whatever the stat is, I’ll just say 80% of the world is going to procreate, right? Like, that’s my vision, that people get it ahead of time. But most of my clients are, like me, where they find this work in crisis, where they have all of a sudden the strong willed toddler that they’re like, oh, we’re punishing, like, 20 times a day, timeouts and spankings and all the things that we were taught that you do, and the kid just listens, and all of a sudden, we’re so stressed out, our home is chaotic. We feel so disconnected from our kids, and we just are, like, exhausted and tired. And I can’t believe this is how parenting turned out.
0:36:51 – (Wendy): But you’ve been taught and all this rhetoric for years and years about how you, you know, how you’re supposed to parent and then you experienced it. A lot of our parents experienced that for 18 years. The fear and force autocratic model. So then to come into something new, it’s like our heart responds first, where it’s like, this is amazing. Yes. And a lot of times, people get fast results. Right, because they see their kids just respond to, I think, the energy shift of what we’ve been talking about. And then oftentimes, you know, you start to go more advanced, and you then are like, okay, I’m going to replace punishment with compassionate discipline. And it’s like, record scratch.
0:37:33 – (Wendy): Wait a second. This feels really uncomfortable, and there’s just so much resistance that shows up. So can you touch on that concept of familiar, unfamiliar, and what we can just do to just step in to more safety around that?
0:37:46 – (Sarah): Yeah, I’d love to add familiar, unfamiliar, optimal.
0:37:54 – (Wendy): Yes.
0:37:55 – (Sarah): And that familiar and optimal can be the same, but often it’s not. And what’s happening in the body, this is my opinion, and it’s based a bit from Candace Pert’s work, which I read maybe 15 years ago, maybe 20 years ago. And she was the first one to isolate the opiate peptide, and she started studying, where are these? Oh, you mean they’re not all in the brain? Our emotions aren’t on our brain. Oh, they’re on, like, all the cells in our body. Almost all the cells in our body.
0:38:39 – (Sarah): And then seeing that all these cells have receptor sites, if you can imagine going from the inside of the cell to the outside of the cell and that it’s not a locking key, but it’s a vibration. So when people talk about high vibration or I changed on a cellular level, our speech is often more intuitive than our mind actually knows. And so what’s happening when we change, when we really make changes, is that we have to change on a cellular level. So we have these little receptor cells that are, you know, vibrating to, I like to say, like, one’s maybe like doing a salsa dance. And then peptide, which is an emotion, comes along and it’s used to binding with a certain receptor.
0:39:20 – (Sarah): So we’re used to saying, like, say if you watch tv every day at 06:00 your cells are. It’s like a dog waiting for its dinner hour at 06:00, like, you start vibrating in, like, readiness to get that dopamine hit and you are ready for it. And if you change that pattern, it feels like abandonment, it feels like withdrawal. Because now your cell, your receptor cell is like, where’s my dance partner? Where’s my dance partner?
0:39:50 – (Sarah): And nobody shows up. And. But what’s happening? This is what I’m borrowing a phrase called the tension field. You could also say you’re in the unfamiliar. It’s this space in between familiar and optimal, where withdrawal is happening at a cellular level and the body is freaking out. I don’t know how to survive this next phase. And as a parent, my experience has sometimes been like, you know what? Like when you were talking about the passive parenting, there can be a point where like, I don’t care, have the snack, I don’t care, have the piece of candy. Like, nothing could be worse.
0:40:36 – (Sarah): Nothing could be worth this much screaming and dysregulation. Like, do I care that much about? Yeah, but what’s happening is that they’re, they’re having a huge chemical process in their body. And it’s like that learning how to say no. That learning how to have patience. And can we, as a spaceholder, as a parent, be strong enough and stable enough to say, like, I will usher you through the tension field?
0:41:09 – (Wendy): Yes.
0:41:11 – (Sarah): And on the other side, a new pattern is created. And this is the same thing that happens for us as adults when we start to change patterns. There can be a lot of fear and it can feel, like, really uncomfortable sometimes it’s considered like, oh, it feels like death inside or the fear of death, like, going slow. When you talked about that, I don’t know, you were going so slow, your cells weren’t getting the momentum that they were used to getting. And momentum helps us over. Like, momentum helps us override and bypass any feelings of discomfort that might be there if we slow down.
0:41:50 – (Wendy): Yeah.
0:41:51 – (Sarah): So when we wait long enough and if we have the capacity, part of this has to do with growing capacity. And if we create the conditions, then we’re able to stay with activation long enough to create a new pattern. I will give an example with my daughter. She liked to have some water at night. And my girls have really great bladders. Like, they could drink a whole thing of water and they’re not going to get up in the middle of night. And so that’s nothing. It hasn’t been a thing for us. So we’re just like, great, you want water? And then it’s like, I want milk.
0:42:25 – (Sarah): And then it’s, I’m so hungry. Can I just have a cracker. Right? So it’s like these small steps to, like, having meals in bed. It literally was not meals in bed, but, like, at some point, and I want to say I wasn’t necessarily the parent who was offering these things, but they started because we just wanted her to get to bed. We didn’t want to put it off more. And then she’s going to have a bigger meltdown.
0:42:53 – (Sarah): There was time sensitivity, and one night I was like, okay, we’re going to do this. Like, I’m going to even sit here. And I told her the night before, the night before, like, this will be the last night that we have crackers in bed and milk in bed. We’ll check in before we go upstairs to remind you. This is the last opportunity to have, you know, crackers and milk. I love that you can always have water upstairs.
0:43:19 – (Sarah): And the next night comes and she wants what she wants because our body is now in a cycle where it is wanting its comforting thing. And those were her comforting things. And it was so hard to sit there for maybe 45 minutes as she was having the biggest feelings. And I’m just thinking, like, do I care if she has a cracker? Like, there’s a part of me that’s like, have your crackers. I’m sorry. My cells were like, can I be with these feelings?
0:43:53 – (Sarah): Can I be with something that’s this large? And then I start questioning, like, am I even right? But we made it through, right? I made it through, and I was able to be present with her. And that shows her something for other times in life, too, right? That also shows her, like, think about times when perhaps you’re breaking up out of a toxic relationship and there are all these desires to go back. Can you be stable? Can you have a stable other in your life who’s like, I see you. I know you.
0:44:19 – (Sarah): I’m here for your optimal, and I will stay with you through this threshold, and you stay. And there hasn’t been a night since. There have been no arguments. There have been no begging. It’s just, oh, we don’t do this because it was consistent. There are plenty of times where I feel like we’re like, do we care about that? And then we buckle. And I understand it’s not the best, but the things that were like, oh, this is clearly something we don’t do anymore.
0:44:47 – (Sarah): I have had somebody else who I was on their podcast, and we’re talking about this for the reason of entrepreneurship. And then she texted me later to say, oh, I was in target with my kid. And having this in mind was so helpful when they wanted the thing that they wanted. And there was a part of me that just didn’t want to break their heart. And, of course, I can afford, afford it. And to actually just remember, oh, we’re in the tension field, and it’s my job to be the thermostat and to usher my child through because, you know, whether it was their boundary or whether it was what was optimal, it’s a good reminder. And even when she said that to me, I was like, oh, thank you.
0:45:30 – (Sarah): That’s a good reminder for me.
0:45:32 – (Wendy): Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It just reminds me. Yeah. Of like, you know, I see parents, and I was there for a while, too, where we’ll do anything to stop the drama. And so you put the band aid on and you lay the hammer or you yell or, you know, some people might go to the bribery or rewards or just saying yes, and it’s like, anything to have it stop because of that. Tension field is so new to people, right? That, like, unfamiliar hell that I heard, you know, people talk about as far as the body will choose the unfamiliar hell any day, or.
0:46:11 – (Wendy): Sorry, am I saying that right? Sarah?
0:46:12 – (Sarah): Sarah, the familiar hell over the. Thank you.
0:46:16 – (Wendy): I literally say it wrong every time I say it. And. And so we get into this pattern, and then I just see it perpetuate and then the child, like, they never. They never get through it on their own, and they real, and they learn that it just becomes this massive, um, cycle of where it just never ends. And then we find that when families can get to the place where they do exactly what you’re talking about, create the safety, bring in the ability to either co regulate or believe that their child can get through what I call the rainbow on their own without having to fix it or stop it, and then coming together and basically, like, look at us.
0:46:54 – (Wendy): We did it. We created that new synopsis, I suppose you could say, where we are capable, and this is part of life, this is part of being human. And we did. We. We got through this together, right? And that’s what really, I see families, and I know I experienced it for myself. Just insane amount of growth happens after that. And so it’s just so cool to hear a little bit more about the science behind it.
0:47:17 – (Wendy): Sarah, I could talk to you for hours, and I wish we had, like, 5 hours with you today. I feel like I’m going to have to hire you to come. I don’t know if you do that at all. But to come into our fresh heart, experience group sometime, because I know that our community would just be so blessed by learning more from you. But in the meantime, where can listeners come find you and work with you if they want to get more of this in their life?
0:47:43 – (Sarah): I so appreciate you being mindful of time. And that part of me that’s like, wait, one more thing. I know the three directions map, which I also call that the rainbow, which is so interesting. Yes. So one of the directions of those three is the rainbow. And to get through what we’re talking about, this tension field, we build conditions. And so we’ve talked about the condition of pacing. And then you said that your child can. You said, then your child sees they can get through this on their own.
0:48:15 – (Sarah): But one of the conditions is relational health, which I know you also named as part of your programming, because even as adults, I am still working to reprogram myself around, like, not needing to self regulate all the time, that I could lean on stable others. So the guy that we work with on Fridays is always trying to get people to call him, but his phone is largely silent because most of his clients are highly independent individuals who try to figure it out on their own.
0:48:49 – (Sarah): And so he’s trying to get them to understand what it’s like to regulate with a stable other. And so when your child makes it through that threshold, it’s actually important that they didn’t make through it on their, they didn’t do it on their own, that they have come into relationship with somebody who can be stable while they’re looping. Because for me, as an adult who loves, who has all the tools, when I’m looping, I still feel like, oh, I don’t want to burden anybody.
0:49:19 – (Sarah): All my friends are so busy, and they’re not going to want to hear from me when I’m looping and spinning out and I’m having bigger emotions than I quote unquote, should over this thing. So, so beautiful that a child could know early on that all of them is welcome. That’s another Ray Castellino principle. Like, all of you is welcome. And when you have your biggest emotions, I’m not scared of them. And you make it through with somebody by your side, and then, of course, you are more capable to do it on your own, but to actually then want partnerships that have that and want friendships that have that and want business relationships, I’m not saying you’d bring that into a corporate, but you might bring it into a mastermind that becomes a really beautiful skill that not a lot of people in our generation, I think, have, but are leaning into more.
0:50:15 – (Wendy): So, so true, which is like interdependence, right? So dependence and independence on the edges. And then that middle sacred ground of interdependence and how beautiful it is. And that’s true. Humanity is. We need each other. We’re all. We all have the same root system. So I love that. Oh, my gosh. So beautiful.
0:50:36 – (Sarah): To answer your other question, where people can find me, you can go to Sarataseye. So that’s Sarah with an h and then t as in Tom, a c as in cat y. I almost gave you my email, Tom.
0:50:51 – (Wendy): I love it. Sarah. Tacy.
0:50:55 – (Sarah): And on there, you’ll see I do. I do work with different people who are having masterminds and retreats, and I do do one on one work. And I also have a podcast called Threshold moments. I have one that released last July, around July 4 on interdependence just because you just named it. I had one on double binds recently, so I do mini musings that are more about nervous system details, moving from optimal to familiar. So all of those are there, as well as some really great interviews.
0:51:34 – (Sarah): So those are a few places that you can find me. And thank you so much.
0:51:38 – (Wendy): I can’t wait. Okay, so saratacy.com and then come find you on the podcast. I can’t believe I’m not listening to that yet. So that is now on my list for my hikes with the dogs and how beautiful. Sarah, your work is so important and so lovely, and you are just a joy to spend time with. So thank you for spending time with us and taking time out of your busy schedule, and we’ll let you get to those beautiful girls for pickup. But thanks so much for being here, listeners, go find Sarah and enjoy her beautiful work that she’s doing in the world and reach out because she is a gem.
0:52:16 – (Sarah): World is also very lucky to have you.
0:52:19 – (Wendy): Thank you.
