In this heart-centered and thought-provoking episode, Wendy welcomes Dr. Camden Morgante, a licensed psychologist and progressive Christian writer, to explore how we can thoughtfully deconstruct aspects of our faithโwithout losing our integrity or connection to Jesus.
Together, they navigate the intersection of spiritual growth and parenting, sharing personal stories about shifting belief systems, healing from harmful theology, and raising children in a home rooted in values of curiosity, compassion, and respect.
Dr. Camden shares her journey from purity culture and evangelical fundamentalism to a more expansive, inclusive, and emotionally healthy faithโand how this evolution shapes the way she parents and supports others doing the same.
This episode is an invitation to all families who feel the tension of shifting spiritual beliefs while trying to raise kind, confident, and faith-filled kids. Whether youโre unraveling toxic teachings or reimagining what faith can look like in your home, this conversation will leave you feeling seen, supported, and inspired.
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Episode Highlights:
- The Deconstruction Journey: Dr. Camden explains what it means to deconstruct faithโand how itโs more about seeking truth and freedom than abandoning belief altogether.
- Breaking Cycles of Harm: A candid discussion about healing from purity culture, authoritarian church structures, and parenting patterns that rely on fear or shame.
- Faith + Parenting Integration: How Dr. Camden balances progressive Christianity with gentle, respectful parenting practicesโwhile honoring both her childโs autonomy and her spiritual values.
- Hope for Christian Parents: Encouragement for those questioning how to hold onto faith while doing things differently than they were taught.
- Modeling Growth: Why showing kids that adults can evolve, reflect, and make conscious choices is one of the most powerful gifts we can give the next generation.
Resources Mentioned:
Follow Dr. Camden on Instagram
Dr. Camdenโs website
Grab a copy of Dr. Camdenโs book Recovering from Purity Culture: Dismantle the Myths, Reject Shame-Based Sexuality, and Move Forward in Your Faith
Watch the full episode on YouTube!
Unable to listen, or prefer to read along? Here’s the transcript!
00:02
Hello, families and welcome back. I’m so happy you’re here. And I am just thrilled to be here this morning with Dr. Camden Morgante. Welcome to the show, Camden. Thank you, Wendy. It’s nice to meet you and finally get to talk face to face. yes. This has been an episode coming for a long, time. I feel like you and I have been connecting on the internet for probably years now.
00:27
I think admiring each other’s work and cheering each other on. finally, we get to have an interview and really get to know each other in a deeper capacity. Listeners and viewers, today we’re going to be talking about parenting through deconstruction, keeping Christ at the center. Because I know that we have so many families from all across the world who are either an evolving Christian,
00:50
or they’re in a season where they’re starting to question some things that they were taught and raised with, especially when it comes to parenting and discipline. That’s kind of like the thing that starts to open their eyes a little bit to, okay, maybe I was taught some stuff that has not led to my thriving, my family’s thriving.
01:09
And so I know so many are gonna really just be excited to hear about your experience, Dr. Camden, and especially when it comes to purity culture. That’s gonna be one of the biggest things we hit, of course, because Dr. Camden, your new book is out into the world, recovering from purity culture. And my goodness, I’m not all the way through it yet, but it is absolutely incredible. And I’m so inspired by you. You did it.
01:36
You wrote a Oh, thank you. Thank you for, yeah, your kind words, your encouragement and reading with it and engaging with it. Yes, absolutely. So we’re going to cover three things today, listeners. Healing from purity culture and raising kids with a healthy sexual ethic. We’re going to also talk about how to disengage from submission culture that you might have been raised in or that is currently even being taught in your church environment and approaching parenthood as a team.
02:03
as a true team. And then thirdly, we’ll chat about leaving incident obedience culture behind, finding courage to choose compassionate discipline over punishment. But we are going to cover a lot around purity culture, which is what your book is all around. So Dr. Camden, would you just start our conversation off today with your story? Tell us a little bit more about why you are so passionate about serving people in this capacity. us.
02:32
tell us all the things. How did you get to this place where you are today? Tell us your story, please. Yeah. Well, thank you. It’s been a long journey to get here for this published book to be in my hands right now. And it’s funny because I had a comment on Instagram the other day, like, I wish this book had been around 20 years ago, someone said. And I totally understood what they meant. But my response was, well, 20 years ago, I was 18, and I was quite steeped in purity culture. So I couldn’t have written this book. You know, I would have
03:00
written the opposite of it pretty much. So, but yeah, so I grew up very conservative evangelical and steeped in purity culture and hierarchy gender roles called complementarianism where men are in charge and women are submissive. And that was just kind of the norm, but my personality never really fit that.
03:21
But I was a rule follower, so purity culture fit my personality. I was very much attracted to being a good girl and following the rules and this idea that I could control the outcomes by following the rules. You know, that I could guarantee a fairy tale or happy ending if I did everything right according to the purity culture rule book. So I read a lot of purity culture books growing up in the 1990s and 2000s. I had a true love weights ring and took a pledge, an abstinence pledge.
03:51
And I just really bought into that, followed it wholeheartedly. And I didn’t date until I was 18. And I had my first serious relationship, first kiss, first love. We dated for almost three years at this small Christian college that we attended where it was the norm for everyone to get married really young and really quickly. But we dated for almost three years. And then we broke up. He broke up with me and I was heartbroken because I was in love and that’s just devastating emotionally.
04:20
my faith was also really devastated by the breakup because it brought into question so many of these false promises of purity culture and that guarantee that I was taught about if you do the right thing, then you can control the outcome. You’ll get your fairytale marriage and spouse and you’ll never be heartbroken. You’ll never have baggage. Yeah. So it took me into a period of deconstruction really.
04:45
that’s when it kind of started for me. I went straight from undergrad into my doctoral program. So got my doctorate, became a psychologist. And through that process, seeing clients who were dealing with all types of suffering and trauma that I had just not experienced in my relatively privileged life, like just had not experienced a lot of the religious trauma and church hurt that people had gone through, the sexual abuse and trauma people had gone through, the LGBTQ discrimination that some of my clients had.
05:14
experienced. So that really opened my eyes and shifted a lot of my beliefs. And including with purity culture, I still kind of held on to my faith in God, I still held on to some of my values about the sacredness of sex. But yet, a lot of the reasons for that shifted, it became less about guaranteeing these, these outcomes, and putting all my hopes and faith in these false promises and more about
05:42
I feel an authentic connection and personal relationship with God. So then I met my husband finally and got married when we were almost 30, which is quite old here in the South. I know that that is normal, probably normal in California and normal in other places, but in the- progressives. Yeah. We’re getting married at like 50. Yes. Yeah. I know for some people I’m like, well, they’re like, that’s average. I’m like, but in my cultural context here in the conservative Christian South, going to a Christian college, like I was,
06:12
pretty much the last, one of the last in my friend group. And I’m so thankful for my husband now. We have two children and I’m grateful for, yeah, for them in my life and the blessing that that is. But it didn’t take away the pain that purity culture caused me. And that set me on this path of I wanna help others to see the harm of purity culture, to see that these teachings we were given were myths, but also to hold onto their faith through that process.
06:40
And as a psychologist, I felt like I had something unique to offer that not every book was just able to address when people are writing based on their own personal experience or like a memoir of their journey, but they’re not a mental health professional. Like I just felt like I had something unique to offer with that. So my book includes some of my personal experience, but really it’s more centered on tools for mind, body integration and healing and case studies of clients that I worked with and.
07:07
Yeah, and stories from interviews that I did. So yeah, it’s more of a combination of the professional and personal experience. So beautiful. I’m seriously so inspired by this book. And just I can tell you’re someone who just you do your work in such a way that helps save faiths, right? Like I’ve had that a lot from my clients where they’ve said, know, Wendy, you were Sheila’s work and they’ve name dropped you to.
07:37
it’s really helped me save my faith because of this work. so I love the way you do your work and I love the way that you really help people hang on to their relationship with God because holy smokes, is it a bit, mean, it’s just mind, what is a good synonym? What is a good rhyming word for that? Mind fluffery. It’s mind fluffery. Like when you put all these things that we’re gonna talk about today.
08:03
into one bucket. And you’re like, wow, being raised with that is so intense to heal from that. And once you realize like, oh my goodness, this is really off. And I just know from working with my own clients from all over the world, the immense amount of harm and suffering. And that came from that type of deep, strict,
08:30
legalism or fundamentalism or strict evangelical upbringing. It is just so beautiful to watch people step in to the healing that happens. And in my experience, so many people do become closer to God, right? Like I know deconstruction, people have attacked it just like they’ve attacked compassionate discipline or
08:52
gentle parenting, but it is, in my experience, what brings people closer to God quite often when they’re fully supported in a way where they can fully heal. And so your work is just so important. And to bring in that training and that expertise that you have in combination with it. So thank you. Thank you for everything that you do. It just means so much to me for someone who helps so many people out of the immense suffering.
09:20
that this kind of upbringing has created. Well, I think it’s important for us to be able to have the both and, the both holding onto our faith and our relationship with God and healing from these toxic beliefs, being able to separate what is true and of God and loving and good and what was manmade and used to control me and shame me rather than what God’s truth is. It’s so important to be able to separate those.
09:50
And really for those who want to, to be able to hold onto their faith. And I always say to my readers, like, your faith will not look the same after deconstruction. And that’s okay. Don’t be scared of that because it’s going to lead to a deeper and more robust faith. That’s just more complex and isn’t satisfied with black and white answers anymore. And so to somebody else, it may look like you’ve fallen away, but really you’ve stepped forward. You’ve moved forward into a deeper.
10:19
level of understanding and spiritual development. It’s so true. And I just love this conversation, having interviews with someone like you or with Sheila. We’ve interviewed Sheila and Rebecca quite a few times where we do collaborative workshops together. But it’s so interesting because I was not raised in any of this, right? I was not raised in the church at all. And so to come from this angle of
10:48
real just, I think curiosity and intrigue. My husky is barking right now, lovely. I know if you can hear that. But to come from an angle of like real just learning about what you guys went through and what was taught and now understanding, my gosh, hold on one second.
11:10
get him settled.
11:22
She’s never done that before. That’s so odd. Okay. Let me just start that part over for my editor. So what I love about being in this position where I get to interview incredible experts and healers and helpers of the world like you and Sheila, we’ve gotten to interview Sheila and Rebecca a few times who do so much beautiful work in the purity culture healing world.
11:45
But it’s so interesting because I was not raised in the church. I found God when I was 19. I came to know Jesus kind of on my own when I was in college here in San Diego, California. But I can come at it from such an angle of curiosity. And my justice button is the reason why I do this work. So the reason why I have this conversation is because I know it’s so important to
12:14
help people have healthy faith experiences and also to raise children in healthy faith. Meredith Miller’s book, it’s like one of my favorite ever is how to raise your kids in a faith that they don’t have to heal from. Is that the essence of it woven? And that is why I think it’s so important to have this conversation today because we have a lot of families who, yes, were raised in purity culture and then others who were like, we weren’t raised in purity culture or wasn’t thick.
12:43
Right? then we became, we become part of churches where we realize, oh, there’s a, there’s a essence going on here and there’s things being taught or conversations or youth group. And so I think it’s so important to just be educated and to know that you want to, you want to be able to steer your child in a healthy way and be aware that these are the things that could be still to this day being taught at your church.
13:13
that you just want to be aware of. Does that make sense? Right? Like, I think a lot of people just aren’t aware of it. And so they send their kids to youth group. you know, maybe I’ve heard, I was just walking with a friend the other day and she said, you know, I send my kids to a Christian school because I just don’t feel like I have the time to nurture their faith, like busy single mom. And
13:36
And so she’s dropping kids off and not necessarily always involved in what they’re teaching, but just to know that there’s probably a good chance that this could be being taught and to be aware of it, I think is so important. So. And I love the perspective you can bring too, Wendy, because that can give us a reality check that these things are not normal. You when you didn’t grow up in it and you’re hearing it for the first time, like I have a friend of mine who’s a therapist here who didn’t grow up in.
14:05
with a strong faith background. And she called me and she’s like, my client said she heard this phrase, modest is hottest. What does that mean? And I was like, oh yeah. I’ve heard that so many times, but to her that was new. And so she had this strong reaction to her client, which was actually really validating for the client to see like, this is not normal. this is actually weird. So it can be helpful to have your perspective. Yeah, I love that. It’s true.
14:34
I feel I think I can talk about a lot of the stuff that we talk about, whether it’s compassionate discipline versus punishment or this, because I’m not like as likely, I’m not triggered. I’m not triggered by it at all, right? So I just, I love having this conversation. I feel like it’s a real, real honor and yeah, so all the things. Okay, well, our first point, it comes to parenting through deconstruction, Dr. Camden, keeping Christ at the center, healing from purity culture and raising kids with a healthy sexual ethic.
15:04
Tell us what to do here, because I know your book is so beautiful. Yes, you share your story and your expertise, and so much of it is the how-to. How do you heal from this and or also make sure that you’re raising kids with a healthy sexual ethics? I know this is a big question. Let’s dive in. Okay. Yes, this is a big question, a big topic. The last chapter of the book is called Parenting After Purity Culture. So that’s the one that is most focused on parenting and raising kids.
15:33
but don’t ignore the first 12 because I say the work really has to start with you. And whether you grew up in purity culture or not, certainly if you did, this is all going to be applicable to you. But even if you didn’t, had another, a writer friend read the book. I think she said, I didn’t grow up as a Christian, so I didn’t know how much of this I would relate to, but I wanted to read it to support you. she read it and she said it like that. I was weeping through parts of it because
15:58
This stuff is in our broader culture too. This idea that you’re damaged goods if you have premarital sex. I have five chapters, one on each of five purity culture myths and one of them is the damaged goods myth. And that’s something that’s not just in evangelical purity culture. so…
16:15
That was something that was really healing for her to read or one of them is the gatekeepers myth that pits men and women against each other and all these gender stereotypes. That’s in our broader culture too. Like that’s not just an evangelical Christianity. So I think this book could be relatable even for those who didn’t grow up in it. But, definitely the parenting chapter is going to be the most focused on that. And as you were talking about raising kids with healthy sexual ethic, yeah, it really does start with
16:43
doing our work first to heal our own shame and knowing what we believe, knowing our own sexual ethic first, because that’s gonna guide us on what values we wanna teach our kids. And borrowing from our friend, Meredith Miller, like she says, doing nothing isn’t neutral. Like, so some parents will say, well, I don’t want to do purity culture with my kids because it was so harmful to me. So I’m just kinda kind of like…
17:10
know, give them sex ed but then kind of like let them figure out what they believe and kind of, you know, like that’s between them and God. And I get that because we want to avoid the hyper control of purity culture but also doing nothing isn’t neutral, like they’re gonna hear it somewhere. And it’s better for you to kind of guide them and give them, yeah, give them a little bit of that guidance at the same time knowing that they have autonomy to make their own choices.
17:34
and decide for themselves what they believe one day. Does that make sense? That’s a both and two of like both, think it is our job to guide them and to instill these values and lessons. And I know my kids have autonomy and agency to make their own choices. Absolutely. And you know, again, not being immersed in it and reading your book is absolutely applicable. Like it is like, I just love it. I love learning about it because it is so thick in our culture. And we know that
18:02
A lot of times the evangelical church does drive culture like right now, like we’re seeing it, right? Like the concepts, the myths, the things that they create a big deal around like Holy smokes. And so it helps to make sense of how we got to where we are, right? But what I’ve always been, it’s been interesting to me to watch over the years is how sex is like, it’s like the most human.
18:29
Like, obviously, it’s how we all got here. And it’s like the best thing ever. It’s like the ultimate feeling of euphoria and joy, right? Like all the things. But for some reason, it’s been like shamed. Like it’s this like secret thing. And I think the church has so much to do with that. And it just really blows my mind on how we got to the place where we are, where it’s so hard to talk to your kids about it and so embarrassing and they’re so…
18:58
And I don’t know what your perspective on this is, but it feels like there isn’t ever like, perhaps there hasn’t been a taught something taught of like healthy desire and like goodness of sex. Like is that missing in the church in your opinion? Or, cause when I think about healthy sexual ethic and I actually had a friend say something at the beach once she was the coolest chick and I don’t think she was Christian, but she was a widow and
19:28
had just really interesting perspective and a 16 year old also. And she said, she asked me, so Stella, how are you teaching something about Stella? I we just went deep right away the first day I met her on the beach. she ended up saying something like, are you really teaching her about how much she matters as she’s starting to date and like her desires and her satisfaction and her joy are like so important. And I was just like, wow, I’ve.
19:56
never thought about that. And no, am not having conversations with my my kids. And I do to some extent to like, it’s the best thing. Like I tee it up is, it’s amazing. It’s amazing. It’s going to be the best feeling ever. And we do. It’s later in life once you’re mature and you have these healthy relationships and blah, blah. We have our whole way. And I’m going to learn from you today, too. But I like the idea of teaching that it’s beautiful and amazing when it’s done.
20:25
right, which I’ve heard in the purity culture world or evangelical world. It’s just like the patriarchal, awful, painful, like you don’t really matter as much as I matter. So that’s a lot to put on you. But let me know. Well, I think, I think that’s interesting, Wendy, because we were taught that sex is like dirty, bad, wrong, sinful. Like you don’t do it at all. But then once you get married, you flip a switch and sex is going to be amazing and mind blowing and pleasurable.
20:54
And I push back against that. I call it the flipped switch myth because it’s not always the case. I have a sex therapy practice. I do more than just that in my therapy practice, but some of it is sex therapy with couples who did wait. And sex has just never been easy and never been what they were taught to expect. It’s not amazing and connecting like they want it to be. so holding space for them and making space for their grief is part of their therapy journey.
21:23
So think with our kids, we do want to teach them that their body is good and beautiful and that sex is good and beautiful. I think that is important not to demonize sex, but I would also caution against idolizing it because I think that’s what purity culture did. And again, that sets up these outcomes of if you wait, then it will be amazing. And that’s just not reality for a lot of people. So I think it’s what you’re saying is great about like sex and your bodies are good and beautiful and we don’t…
21:53
We don’t make it this taboo or this dirty topic, but also we want to equip them with sex education, with skills to learn how to communicate because that’s really what makes sex great. You know, it’s not just that you waited that makes it great. It’s the communication, it’s the sex education, it’s the teamwork, it’s the connection, like all of those things. And so we want to work on those qualities too. Absolutely. That is so, so important. And yeah, she had mentioned that that day, she’s like, I really want my daughter.
22:23
to be able to communicate. And I was like, this is so interesting. I’ve never thought about this. But yes, that’s what I would want my daughter to because I am so grateful to have a spouse who just always cared so much about me and not just about him. None of us came with the package of purity culture, right? What else was I going to say? was going to say something else. Hold on.
22:47
Oh yeah, so to me, it feels like it would be very hard to flip the switch and have it be this wonderful thing because it is so vulnerable and it’s so like, if you had it teed up at all as any type of like shameful, if it’s not perfect, right? if there, can see how, because I look at obviously child development, human development, the way our bodies take on shame.
23:13
that if there was any type of that happening or judgment, shame, any of that, how just to flip a switch and move into, oh, this is beautiful. And we’re gonna have this healthy communication and it’s gonna feel wonderful. And I matter just as much as the guy matters, is our next thing, disengaging from submission culture and approaching parenthood as a true team. But just to stick to that flipping the switch.
23:40
it sure feels like that’s gonna be a way higher degree of difficulty if it’s not teed up as a beautiful, healthy, normal part of life that’s taught in a different way. Yeah, what I hear you getting at is the mind-body connection. Like, because our mind and body is so inextricably linked and integrated, these messages from purity culture and the messages of shame and fear really become embodied, embedded in our bodies. And so, like, I have this…
24:09
I say, you once we get married, our minds may know that sex is holy and like allowed, but do our bodies know it? You know, our bodies can’t just flip that switch even though our minds do. So it really takes a lot more mind body integration and embodiment, which is like the act of living in your body rather than being distant from it. It takes more work on those skills in order to have a healthy and holistic sexuality and purity culture.
24:37
really was a divorce of the mind and body, a complete disconnect. so embodiment is one area that is majorly affected by purity culture and something that requires just a lot of practice to rebuild that relationship with your body. Yes. And then, you know, bringing in the whole, like the modesty messages and like, you know, the boys are uncontrollable and it’s like the girl’s job to like cover up and all these things. And again, raising a teenage daughter right now where Terry and I weren’t raising it.
25:06
but we know about this whole world. And I see her sometimes and I’m like, that’s amazing. I am not concerned at all about like her sports bra and you know, tiny shorts that she wears to beach volleyball. She’s a competitive beach volleyball player. but again, I can just imagine how it would be if you were raised in that and you were fearful of judgment.
25:30
that when you practiced your sport, you were tempting young men. Like it’s just not a thing, right? Like for us, but I can imagine how much fear and shame and questioning and doubt that would put into you. And then you get married and you’re supposed to walk into a room and be like, hey, what’s up? know, it’s just, it doesn’t work that way, right? Like if you’ve integrated these messages of fear and shame and then all of sudden, so I love that. can’t, I’m not.
25:58
to that flip the switch chapter yet, but I can’t wait to get there. Cause I think that’s gonna be really, really fascinating. And what you were saying about like pleasure and desire. think people, you know, ask me in interviews, like how do we teach our kids? And it’s hard to give like one exact answer because so much of this is really taught in other values. Like it’s not taught by explicitly saying to your daughter, your pleasure matters. Like you, should be treated, you know, well in sex.
26:25
It really starts much earlier than that with you modeling that to her. So I think of little things like when my kids tell me in the car, like, mommy, I’m hot or I’m cold or the music is too loud or too quiet. I say, oh, thank you for telling me. I’m glad you noticed your body. And like, then I’ll make adjustments, you know, if I can, um, to what they’re asking, because that’s already planting the seed that you can listen to your body. You can trust it. You can communicate those needs to other people and they care and will respond.
26:55
So does that make sense how it’s a completely non-sexual thing, but yet I’m already planting that value that can then transfer when she’s older into sexual pleasure and desire. Or another example is we’re potty training my two and a half year old son right now. And we say, listen to your body or check your body. Do you have a pee pee feeling? We teach them what that feeling feels like and you know.
27:18
and just to listen and check in with his body. And I’m thinking this is, I’m developing, helping him develop a relationship with his body where for both my son and daughter, their genitals are not bad and dirty and we call them by the right names, you know, and they, they touch them and they have a relationship with their genitals. And of course we pay attention to hygiene and appropriateness and things like that too, but we’re not shaming them for those behaviors. So I think those are just the little seeds that you plant even with young kids like mine.
27:47
that will pay off later when it’s time to talk about the bigger sexual values. Oh, I love that. I love it, Dr. Candid. OK, so good. All right, well, we’ll probably come back and forth, integrate purity culture amongst this whole conversation. But talk to us about disengaging from submission culture and approaching parenthood as a true team. That is a lot of times.
28:12
not what we grew up in, right? Where mom was like submissive to dad, dad wait till dad gets home, dad’s gonna do all the spanking and mom’s kind of powerless to have any control over these kids. It has to be dad. And then you add in the purity culture in the bedroom that comes out all the things. So how can we disengage from submission culture and approach parenthood as a true team and why?
28:36
Yeah, I think that’s so important and I love it and I don’t get to talk about it that much. So I’m glad we get to talk about it because I’m so passionate about being a team and being equal partners in our marriage. And that has made such a big difference in my family and our parenting experience because both of us are fully involved as caregivers, caretakers to our kids. And we both have careers and are fully involved in those two and in ourselves, our own personal development.
29:04
And I love that my kids are getting to see this equal partnership and to see that dad and mom are both involved, both pick you up from school, both help with these things, put you to bed, all these tasks that normally a mom does, my husband does too. And we make decisions together as a team. And that really started from day one with him taking paternity leave and staying home as long as he could. Like I’m a big proponent of…
29:33
start with this equal partnership and this equal parenting as early as you can. And of course, the experience of pregnancy delivery postpartum, like there are certain things that can’t be equal, you know, that he just couldn’t experience, but as much as he could, he was by my side, helping me with breastfeeding and, you know, supporting my healing, postpartum healing and things like that. And being home with me and our, and our babies. So yeah, it’s so important to model that and
30:00
And then for the church that we go to, we switched churches a couple of years ago because we wanted to be at a church that had female pastor too. And that my daughter could hear a female preach on a Sunday. And it was so powerful. And for me, sitting beside my daughter in church when she was five years old, like the first time she heard a woman preach on a Sunday, because normally she’s in Sunday school, but that day in particular, she decided to stay with us.
30:30
female associate pastor preach. And I thought to myself, man, I was 35 the first time I heard a woman preach on a Sunday and how empowering and how healing it is to be able to give my daughter that experience that I didn’t have. That’s really the work of reparenting yourself too, to be able to see, I can give my children the skills, the tools, the knowledge, the experiences that I never was able to have. And that heals me in the process. That is so beautiful.
31:00
And I know I’ve seen you and Sheila kind of use these big words that are not in my zone at all, but complementarianism versus egalitarianism. that right? So complementarianism is the, is the, kind of traditional submission, submission culture. And then will you tell us just about those two real quick? Yeah. Complementarianism is the traditional gender roles where men and women are thought to compliment each other, but are inherently different and have
31:29
Both have value, they would say, both are valuable and made and loved by God, but they have different roles. And so women are excluded from some roles and excluded from having a full and equal voice in decision-making in church or in home, or sometimes even in society. And egalitarianism is the belief that men and women are equal in value and in role, that there are no roles closed off to women or to men, that yeah, we work together as a team with no one being
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hierarchy just because of gender, know, that things are based on like skills and your abilities and your, you know, like in the house, I would think like housework, like that’s based on just, you know, how much time we have and our abilities, not based on our gender or in the workplace, it’s based on like your skills and abilities and not just because well, he’s a man. he’s the one that gets to teach or preach or lead. Yeah. So those are the terms and yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And, and again, the, the compliment
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the complementarianism was often what went along with the purity culture, right? That was one. And then of course, the godly discipline that included hurting and harming kids. That was kind of the lineup in the traditional evangelical world. we do, those, even if you’re listening and you weren’t raised in purity culture or this world, you can see it in the world now, right? We see…
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very loud people on political stages talking about how dad’s very angry and he’s going to come home and spank the other political parent or the other political candidate. And you’re like, wow, this is a thick belief system that that’s the way it’s going to work. Right. We have a woman who is challenging and she’s going to get in trouble and angry dad is going to come home and spank her.
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And these are full grown 50, 60 year old people, you know, they were raised in that world. So they think that that’s like healthy Christianity. really to many of us, it’s become terrifying. It’s become terrifying for those of us who have unpacked this and realize that that’s, that is not the world we want to live in or the world that we want to raise our children in. But to know that it is out in broader culture. And I think it’s important to
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be able to see it and teach your children about that and then also help them understand that we choose to live a different way that is more of this egalitarian way that is completely in line with Christ in our faith. So I love that. Okay. Yeah, these three topics that we’re talking about, Wendy, as you brought them up, I make the argument in the book that purity culture has a foundation of patriarchy, that that’s really what underlies that and modesty culture as well.
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And of course, patriarchy is this complimentarianism we’re talking about. But as we’re talking, I’m thinking really what underlies all of them is hierarchy and control. Because when you’re talking about the discipline, the control discipline, like the spanking and all of that, like that’s about hierarchy with parents at the top and they’re the authority and instant obedience and respect. And children’s don’t matter as much, their feelings or their needs. And it’s control because it’s easier to control.
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and gain immediate compliance and obedience when you use physical force that can seem like first decade maybe, not the second, but yeah. Yes, yes, yes. So I think that’s what it’s all about. There’s a lot of fear-based in this. I say purity culture was fear and shame-based. Those were the tools of control. And I think we see that in that traditional style of parenting as well. It’s a shame-based parenting. Yeah. And before we move on to this,
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passionate discipline last subject. You know, I just would love to riff on this for a second. Why do you think this happened? I mean, it’s just like, what in the world? Like, how did we get go from Jesus and his teachings to fear and shame and hierarchy and control? I suppose it always was like that, right? But like, how, why do you think it’s?
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it got so like, goes down this train of this fear and shame and hierarchy control when it’s like, I am an optimist in of nature, right? Like my true nature is just an optimist. And I just don’t believe people are trying to create this whole world and control women and harm people and hurt children. Like they’re not trying, but they get sucked into this. Like as a psychologist,
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What is, like, I understand when you’re raised with fear and shame, like, it does something to the brain, right? But like, is that just the answer that when people are conditioned with fear and shame that and they’ve had it modeled to them how to feel powerful in, you know, by overpowering others, like, that’s how they get their power needs met. Is that just become addictive? And then all of sudden you have pastors leading mega churches?
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that thousands of people are attending that they think that they’re doing wonderful work in the world. Does that question make sense? Like, what is your opinion on that? Like, how the heck did we get here? Why do people go down this train when they are Christ believers? How does that happen? Yeah. Well, at this level, I think it’s really, it’s what you’re used to, like what your nervous system has adapted to. And it’s when your nervous system adapts to something, that’s what feels normal to you. And so you continue.
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perpetuating it, even though it’s not working for you anymore in adulthood. But really fear is at the core of all of this. And when I think about just the human species, like the strive to survive, know, survival of the fittest, like we had to have fear of served an adaptive purpose to keep us surviving and to keep us from things that are dangerous and to help us survive. And yeah, so I feel like this all comes down to fear and
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Fear is a powerful motivator for adults and kids and a powerful tool to control. Yes. And then I see what happens in this world when people get called out and they don’t take responsibility, right? And they don’t change. We know that there’s more churches that will not take responsibility and change than there are that are like, you know what? I was, you’re right. For 30 years, I led with this.
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message and I’d like to change that, right? Like you just don’t see it as much, but I would say probably fear of judgment and fear of being wrong is probably like they’ve never been educated or guided or mentored or healed on how to feel scared and act in a healthy way, right? Like there’s just these knee jerk reactions, but it seems like even fear drives that because like when people won’t even budge to have a conversation on, on
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some different issues, it seems like the fear of being wrong might be at the top of that too. So I think you’re right. Yeah, the fear of being wrong. And, that’s why they wouldn’t even want to listen to an opinion that is different than theirs, because that that could possibly cause them to question if they’re right or wrong, or that could introduce information they don’t have. And there’s fear in that too. So, so then you get to this very polarized and black and white thinking this world that we live in.
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And we see that just, yeah, in the world, but also in religious circles, black and white thinking is just so rampant. And part of deconstructing that is developing the both and thinking instead. Yeah. And then there’s also the fear of the afterlife burning in hell that also gets brought into this, right? So if you are wrong, you’re not only
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maybe gonna burn in hell, but you’re gonna send other people to burn in hell. Like that’s a real fear for people. So it’s interesting to hear your thoughts on that. That fear is really at the base of all this. And then to hear about the hierarchy control and the shame, it’s so spot on. Okay, our last subject that we’re gonna chat about is leaving instant obedience culture behind. How to find courage to choose compassionate discipline over punishment.
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And you know, I teach about this all day long, but I I just always wanted to hear more about your experience and how you, you know, I’ve, I’ve seen a little bit of your story about how you were like, no, we’re going to do this differently and feel really good about it. But what does that, what does that look like for you and what would you recommend from your expertise as a psychologist for anyone listening?
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Yeah. Well, you are the expert on this, Wendy, but I can share my story and how this has become so meaningful for me. I always knew I wanted to parent differently because I saw the way I was parented and how that harmed me. And I think really fostered an insecure attachment style to my parents. And then learning as a psychologist about attachment style and secure attachment, that being the goal. And
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I’ve read a lot of Dan Siegel’s work and I’m sure you do too and would recommend that. But attachment is so important to health and to success and flourishing in life. it drives so much of having healthy relationships and even academic success. And so before I became a parent, like I made it my goal, like I want to be as healthy as I can be. Of course, that’s an ongoing, you know, ongoing work, but I want to be able to have a secure attachment with my kids, even if I didn’t have one.
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because the research says if you didn’t have one, you’re more likely to have an insecure attachment with your kids. And so you really have to do the work yourself to be able to have a healthy relationship and secure attachment with your kids. So for me, having a healthy marriage is a huge part of that. I know not everybody has a partner or a healthy one, but for me, that’s been a big contributor to being able to have, be healthy in myself and having that secure attachment with my husband.
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gives us a good base to co-parent together, you know, and to have a healthy relationship with our kids. But I just wanted connection-based and not fear-based with the discipline. And I just see emotion regulation as one of the most important parts of being a parent, regulating myself so that I can help my kids learn how to regulate and identify their emotions, because that’s the work I do as a therapist. Like emotion regulation is a big…
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part of therapy and why people come. And so, yeah, so I see that as one of my biggest like jobs as a parent is to keep them safe and to help them learn, have a healthy relationship with their emotions. So it is more demanding of me as a parent, I think, than instant obedience parenting. And I was, you you were saying like maybe for the first 10 years, it’s more effective. So that’s where I still am right now, but I am
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Yeah, hopeful that I’ll have a better relationship with my, my kids in the second decade because of the foundation we’ve laid in that first decade with them and that we won’t have as much of the mother daughter conflict in teenage years that I had as a teenager, hopefully, um, with my daughter because, because we have the secure base now. So, yeah, so it is.
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It takes a lot out of you as a parent. And so that’s why I always say, you you have to do your own work first and you have to have good self care and good boundaries and good support. Not everybody has that. And I know that can be hard to find, but, but it feels again, so healing when you didn’t grow up with that, to be able to give it to your kids and to be able to do something differently, choose something differently to see the fruit of that. Yeah. It’s wonderful. My gosh. That’s so beautiful.
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It is, and it is so fun throughout the years as your kids get older, as you start to see more and more and more of the fruit. And now my little guy just turned 14 on Monday and my little girl turned 17 on Saturday. And it is so fun. Like this stage of life, you know, that first decade you’re kind of trudging and you’re like, Oh my gosh, is this even working? know, and you have all these like, you know,
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aggressive people who write the articles, gentle parenting isn’t biblical and it’s weak and all the things. And you’re like, am I crazy? Am I taking crazy pills? Like, is this actually going to work? Are they actually going to? And then the second decade, when you really stay dedicated, that second decade comes along and you just start to see holy smokes. Like I’ve raised a different type of human, you know, and it’s just, it’s so much fun. And yeah, the rewards are just so massive. And then just riffing on that, like first decade when
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it feels like it demands more and it takes more or that it’s harder. It’s interesting because, you know, I just look at the season where I was doing it and it was short. was like, I found this work when Stella was three, but we were like from two to three, we were disciplining with, I mean, everyone and their uncle was just telling me, just hit her, grab this book off Amazon. It’s a Christian book. It’ll teach you how to use a switch on them.
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make sure they know who’s boss. That’s how you teach them healthy authority of God. And everyone. And I just remember the misery that I was in. Now I know my nervous system was on fire. The strong reactions that Stella would have. The stress and drama that I would have when I went to bed at night with tears on my pillow and…
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I mean, that was so hard on me, you know, like versus the hard that it takes to maybe be 10 minutes late to church, because you have to like pause and use empathy connection, firm limits and a win-win negotiation or something like, it’s just a different kind of hard, you know, but it’s a little hard. I can see that. And it’s so encouraging to hear people who are farther along than me say that because
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Um, my daughter is the first and she is very compliant. She is really easy and she has been since she was a newborn. Um, and so of course you think, well, I’ve got this down, like, you know, this parenting works great. thought my sleep training is great. You know, we did gentle sleep training, just like, she was always great. And then my son came and from day one, like he was not as great of a sleeper. He’s, still a good sleeper for the most part, but like not as great as her. And he’s been much more challenging than her. And.
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doing the same things with him. And we’re like, okay, those same things aren’t working. So we’ve got to get like extra patience, extra compassion and cuddles and time and extra support when he needs it. And it’s, it’s draining sometimes. Yeah. And the two year old. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, well, don’t you talk about like power kids? Is that the term you use? He sounds like a power kid. Yeah.
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Some of them are orchids, some of them are cacti. Okay. times the cacti are future leaders, but so are orchids. Well, power kid, I definitely think so. And I think Mary calls them the spicy ones. I’ve probably got a spicy one here. And so it takes a lot more patience out of me. But yeah, I’m looking forward to the second decade, as you said, seeing it pay off and just seeing my children.
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Like make good choices and have a strong sense of self and have this strong sense of being loved by God and carrying that with them into the world instead of carrying the rules and the fear that I felt. Yes. And the shame, right? Like the shame that comes from being disciplined in a way that your mistakes made you bad and worthy of being hurt. It’s just, that takes a long time to shake. I’m sure you helped so many of your clients through that. It’s like,
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shame is, ooh, it is a thick one. And now we get to have this opportunity to teach kids through healthy, compassionate discipline and firm kindness that mistakes are just opportunities to learn. They’re human. It’s all they are. They’re just And I never wanted to shame my kids for their personalities either. I have to be careful with my son being more challenging to not shame that. Because I was called a strong-willed child. You know that term is like,
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was a religious book, The Strong-Willed Child. so it was used as a judgment. There’s something wrong with me. And I was called Bossy, and I’m the first born daughter. And now I’m like, would I have been able to do the things that I’ve done in my life if I wasn’t strong-willed and bossy? I don’t think that I would. Because it takes a lot to write a book and put your ideas out there and be vulnerable and invest all that time into
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possibly getting criticized, you know, and like, I don’t think someone who wasn’t strong-willed could do it. I don’t know. So it’s like, can I accept and embrace my strong will instead of shaming myself for it? Which we know is so much the ticket, right? Like as soon as you learn to love yourself more, you can eat more easily, love them, the better you are at beating yourself up, the better you are at beating them up. Yeah, Stella, almost 17, she’s the one that’s like…
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hardcore going for the D1 beach volleyball scholarship. don’t think my second kid will be a kid like that. He probably will be home. I’ll probably have to kick him out of the house at like 24. He’s my little hip buddy. but Stella’s that spirit. It is just translating so well and she’s going to get it. You know, she’s going to get it. It’s just when it’s like kind of a little bit of torture for a parent because you just have to fist open, wait for it to happen. Um, but the personality is beautiful. It is beautiful and I can see how it has served you.
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so well to get this book out in the world and your work, because I know it took so much work. Dr. Camden, we love you. It is such an honor to platform your work and to have this conversation with you. Will you let listeners know where they can come find the book and where they can come find you and work with you if possible? Let listeners know. Yeah, thank you. This was a much more personal interview, so I really loved it because you’re just easy to talk to. But the book is recovering from purity culture. It’s available
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wherever books are sold. So here it is, Amazon Baker Book House, which is my publisher. Yes, Wendy’s got hers. And you can find me on drcamden.com and on all the socials @drcamden. Beautiful. I love it. All right. Well, listeners, viewers, thanks for being here today. Thanks for going and giving Dr. Camden some love and getting her book and we’ll see you in the next episode.
