‘NO’ is one of the most powerful two-letter words in our vocabulary. Most of us were told ‘no’ as kids with little explanation (but instead with just an angry or irritated tone) and usually given zero permission to say it ourselves. In this episode of the Fresh Start Family Show, Wendy chats with Michelle Manning-Osborn –The Conscious Hippie Mama – a conscious parenting advocate who shares relatable, educational content on the struggle of parenthood, especially when breaking generational cycles.
When we explore the reasons behind ‘no’ being a healthy and essential word, we are able to find our voice and help our kids to find theirs, too. Wendy and Michelle de-stigmatize this triggering word and look at why you should start saying yes to using it!
Episode Highlights:
- The difference between conscious parenting and gentle parenting
- The journey from knowing we want to do things differently to having the tools to actually do them differently
- Giving ourselves permission to say no and teach our kids how to do it, too
- Getting curious about why we feel triggered when we hear ‘no’ from our kids
Mama, are you sick and tired of relying on hand-me-down parenting tactics like spanking, threatening, intimidating, and using harsh punishments that create a total relationship strain (and aren’t effective at all!!)
Click HERE to save your seat!
Resources Mentioned:
Michelle’s Podcast Parental Seasons
Parental Seasons Ep 20 Interview with Wendy
Compassionate Discipline Guide
Compassionate Discipline Class
FSF’s Membership Program – The Bonfire
FSF’s Positive Parenting Course – The Foundations Course
Special thanks to Parent Playbook for their support of the Fresh Start Family Show! To learn more about this incredible parent empowerment platform, click here!
Not able to listen or want to read along with us?
Here is the episode transcript!
This episode of the Fresh Start Family Show is brought to you by our free Compassionate Discipline Learning Guide: How to Create Logical Consequences That Work with Kids of all Ages. You can grab your copy at freshstartfamilyonline.com/disciplineguide.
Wendy:
Well, hello listeners. I’m so happy you are here for a new episode. I’m your host, Wendy Snyder, positive parenting educator and family life coach. And today on the show I have Michelle Manning-Osborne from Conscious Hippie Mama over on Instagram. Many of you guys know her before she was Little Mama Shark, you might have followed her and she recently changed her name to Conscious Hippie Mama and she’ll, she shares with us why in this episode. But I just adore Michelle, you guys, and I think that she’s just fun and relatable and today she is talking with us about how Yes, Conscious Parents Say No to Their Kids.
So you guys know this, but no is one of the most powerful two letter words in our vocabulary, but most of us were told no as kids with basically little explanation, but instead often just like an irritated and angry tone and usually just given like zero permission to say it ourselves, right? But in this episode, Michelle and I chat about just how we can do it different for our kids. And so I’m just really excited for you to learn more. So let me tell you just a bit about Michelle. She is a conscious parenting advocate who shares relatable educational content on the struggle of parenthood, especially when breaking painful generational cycles.
And you guys know I love, love, love, love, love that. So today you’re gonna hear us explore the reasons behind ‘no’, why it’s a healthy and essential word, and how when we do this, we are able to find our voice and help our kids to find theirs too. So during this chat we kind of de-stigmatize this triggering word and also look at why we should start saying yes to using the word no more. So yeah, you guys enjoy this episode. It’s a really important one. Over the years, I have been over able to strengthen my ability to say no in a neutral way without being so triggered.
It’s felt really good to become more fluent at that. So Michelle’s gonna help you with that today. I’m just love continuing, always supporting you on your journey as you really just try to find that middle ground right between too firm and too kind. And as a dear friend pointed out before, there’s never too kind. So it’s all I know you guys are all, we all, we all are on that journey to find that middle ground between too firm, which is what we call autocratic parenting. And then permissive, which is just, you know, letting your kids rule the roost, do anything they want, but right in the middle is that firm and kind path where you’re setting firm boundaries you’re taking great care about of yourself with- That’s what you’re gonna hear us talk a lot about today with Michelle.
How important it is to take care of yourself as a parent. But you’re taking great care of yourself, you’re setting strong limits and boundaries. You’re strongly connected with really just great relationships With your kids and you’re able to really steer them and redirect their misbehavior into the light, into a more positive direction, into the direction that you want them to go. But you’re doing it with compassion, you’re doing it with grace, you’re doing it with firmness, strong boundaries, all the things. And being able to say no consistently and confidently, but without anger and shame and intimidation and humiliation is just so, so important for all of us to be able to strengthen that ability.
So without further ado, you guys help me welcome Michelle to the show and enjoy this episode.
Stella:
Well, hey there, I’m Stella. Welcome to my mom and dad’s podcast, The Fresh Start Family Show. We’re so happy you’re here. We’re inspired by the ocean, Jesus, and rock and roll and believe deeply in the true power of love and kindness. Together we hope to inspire you to expand your heart, learn new tools, and strengthen your family. Enjoy the show.
Wendy:
Well, hey, there families! Welcome to a new episode of the Fresh Start Family Show. Please help me welcome Michelle Manning-Osborne to the show. Welcome Michelle.
Michelle:
Hi. Thanks for having me Wendy. I’m so excited to talk to you again.
Wendy:
Yes, yes, we got to talk before when we were on your show Parental Seasons, which I know we had a great conversation. I hope your community loved that episode. And then today we are going to be talking about our subject matter for today is Yes, Gentle Parents Say No to their kids. And we’re gonna talk about three reasons why saying No is important for both your kids and yourself as a parent. And I’m gonna tell listeners a little bit about why I’d originally reached out and wanted to talk to you about this subject matter. But first, Michelle, I, I gave everyone a little introduction before we came into this so they know a little bit about you.
But would you tell us in your own words how you got to where you are today and why you love providing parenting inspo to families in such the cool way that you do? Tell us a little bit more about your story.
Michelle:
Sure. So I am Michelle, I have two kids. I have a three and a half year old and a one and a half year old. So I am in the thick of it with two toddlers right now. And I started blogging my motherhood journey when I was three months postpartum with my first kid just because none of my friends had kids and I wanted to find a community of moms to talk to. And I did that for a little bit. And then about a little over a year ago I started sharing how we were changing over from just traditional parenting to gentle parenting styles and started sharing, you know, funny reels and funny stories about how that was going and how hard it was and stuff.
And I went from like 10,000 followers to 50,000 followers in like four months. So yeah, that’s kinda how it,
Wendy:
That’s wild.
Yeah, So I, I started out with like gentle parenting and I, I, after I studied it a while, I realized that we lean more into conscious parenting but still gentle. And now here we are a little over a year later that we’ve been doing it. I’ve learned a ton, I’ve studied it a ton. I’ve kind of dedicated my career to this and yeah, this is, I share pretty much everything on tips, tricks, Hey, try this, it worked for me, Hey don’t do this. It did not work for me. And just have created this community of like-minded parents who like to talk to each other as we figure how to conscious parent out.
Wendy:
So good. And you do it in such a fun like reality based way, right? Like I, I love how you’ll share your, like your great moments and then you’ll all share your, your shitty, your frustrating moments and it’s just so refreshing and fun and your creativity is off the hook with your, your reels and just the way you share information in these. Like I think Instagram is such a challenge, but yet if you’re gifted at it, it is so fun because you get to learn in these little teeny bite size entertaining ways, especially now that Instagram is so like reel driven, right? And it really is such a fun way to make social media air quotes, which I really think like what you do and what I do over on Instagram is not so much social media.
I mean I guess it is cuz we’re building communities of like you said, like my families. But it really is so education based and inspiration based and to do it in these little bite size pieces, right? Where in 30 seconds you can learn or in 60 seconds you can learn a tip about X, Y or Z. So it’s really refreshing and I just have been such a fan since the first day I found you, which by the way, okay, you have to tell us the story behind the name change. You used to be little mama shark and then one day you became conscious hippie mama. We’re talking about Michelle’s Instagram handle. So what was behind the name change?
Michelle:
Yeah, so when I first started blogging I was a little mama shark because my son’s nickname is Finn and so it kind of fit at the time and I just carried it with me. But then when I got into this community and realized, you know, going from gentle to conscious parenting styles and studying more about conscious parenting, I realized that that stuck more and it would mean that other parents who were trying to practice conscious parenting could find me. But also the whole hippie thing is I’m very into like the grateful dead seventies music, like bell bottoms, it’s my style. And it’s funny because people like to call gentle parenting, like hippie parenting.
So it’s just kind of stuck.
Wendy:
I love it and I love your courage just to name change, right? Especially when you have these big communities. I know people get nervous and you were just like, no, I’m gonna change my name. Yep. I’m just gonna do it. I’m gonna do what feels right for me, which is awesome. Okay, so a few more questions for you before we get into our subject matter is what do you, cause obviously I’m a positive parenting educator and family life coach, but I kind of all bucket it into similar, a similar bucket, right? Positive, gentle, respectful, conscious. So tell us a little bit more, it sounds like you really have settled into this conscious parenting bucket. So tell us a little bit about what you see conscious parenting as. And maybe I’ve heard you mention a few times how it’s a little different than gentle parenting and then after that I wanna just talk a little bit about the transition for you.
But let’s tell us a little bit about the conscious to begin with.
Michelle:
Sure. So conscious parenting is more focused on the parent themselves and not the children. So conscious parenting is a lot of the reparenting process, which means basically you were trying to unlearn negative behaviors and generational trauma that may have been passed down to you from your parents who got it from their parents. And you’re breaking those generational behaviors. And so with conscious parenting, yes we do you know, kind of stray away from like the scripts of gentle parenting, whereas mainly our main focus is, okay, my kid’s having a tantrum, but like why does it bother me as much as it does?
Wendy:
Yeah.
Michelle:
And that’s huge for me and that’s why I started transitioning because I felt like gentle parenting was very hard for me because I was getting triggered a lot by my kids’ behaviors. And while I could, you know, like a little robot say, Oh well you know, here’s the script that I learned how to say to you when you’re acting like this. It was more beneficial for me to figure out, okay, why does this bother me? Okay, I’m just really hungry and I’m just kind of on edge. Let me address that and then we can come back to this behavior in a minute.
Wendy:
Yes. Oh that’s, that makes so much sense. Okay. And now that I think about it, when I think about our work here at Fresh Start Family, our Foundations Course is very like strategy based, right? Like it’s very like here’s how you understand the root causes a misbehavior and switch from punishment into compassionate discipline and communicate differently and like, you know, some, not so much scripts but there is definitely like strategies and then our Bonfire support program is really where we get into like let’s dig into this. Like what is this? Why did we freak out on our kids? Or why are we so triggered or why, you know, do we fear judgment of others so much. So the life coaching side of it comes into and adds to the strategy side.
And I’m realizing that’s why I think we have such massive success at the Bonfire is because it’s layered upon each other. And because you’re right, it is so important, the strategies, I think people will read books, they’ll do some programs, but without really that guidance on that side of like, hey, well let’s, let’s look at this. Like why was your heart beating out of your chest? Or why did you feel like you were literally gonna punch a wall? Or why does it send you off the charts embarrassment or whatever it may be. Like digging into that is such a beautiful process and just so, so impactful in our parenting. So I love, I love that focus. Tell us a little bit, Michelle, about, like, you talk about when you decided to switch kind of from what you were doing.
So if your little guy is three and a half, was that when he was like two and a half that you kind of realized, or was it before that that you were like, Oh we really want to do something different than say how we were raised? Like what did that look like for you and your hubs?
Michelle:
So, When before we even had kids, we knew we wanted kids and when we got married and started talking about like one day when we have kids, we both were on the same page that we did not want to spank our children. We had done little research about it, but we just knew that it was just not really what we wanted to do. But that being said, we didn’t have like a backup plan for that. We just thought like, oh we’re just not gonna do it and we’re naive and we think that that’s just gonna work. So then the children came and when my kid was two and a half and he was just, you know, testing boundaries and learning new things and he started hitting a lot and me feeling out of control and not knowing how to handle that situation, I just reverted back to what I knew and I was like, Oh okay, well I’m going to slap at his hand, you know, just a gentle spank.
That’s what my mom would’ve done for me. And I just felt like so bad afterwards and just knew like that was not what I wanted to do and I just, I felt worse about it and it just felt wrong. And so that’s when I started doing kind of more research about gentle parenting and you know, ordered some books about it and then that’s when I started sharing the journey about it. So yeah, it was just, we knew we didn’t wanna spank, we didn’t have a backup plan. Then when shit got real it was like, okay, I’ve heard of this thing called gentle parenting and I know that they don’t spank. Maybe I actually need to read some books about it to see like exactly what I need to be doing. Cuz I feel like yeah, a really shitty parent and I don’t know what to do if I’m not going to spank.
Wendy:
Yes, I hear that so much. Parents will say I know what I don’t want to do, but like, what the hell do I, I do like, especially in those moments when you’re so triggered. So yeah, it’s so, it’s so common, right? Like we know okay we wanna do it different. Like but how the heck do you do it differently? And it is such a journey. So it sounds like it’s been, has it been, has it been just a year for you since you’ve been kind of entrenching yourself in this or is a bit longer cause you feel, it seems like you are a mad expert on this stuff. Like did you just never stop studying because I mean when you speak and when you teach on, or I don’t know if you call yourself teaching or whatever on Instagram, I mean it is, you really, as an educator who’s studied this stuff for 10 years, I mean you really know everything you are teaching and advocating for is like spot on from an educator standpoint.
Michelle:
So I mean I, before kids, like I got my bachelor’s in psychology and of course like that comes with some child development type stuff. But like also I just studied psychology for four years, you know, like I, I’ve, I love it. And so then when this came along, like in the beginning, you know, I wanna say it’s been like maybe 14 months since I’ve been doing this a little over a year and I just like immersed myself in it. Like I’ve read probably like eight to 10 different parenting books. Some are them are conscious, some of them are gentle, some of them are positive discipline, like just kind of a, a wide variety.
And I also listen to podcasts on it. Like I talk with other parenting coaches about it. I mean like literally I think that I learned so much so fast was just the fact that I fully immersed myself in it. And since, you know, with my podcast and my Instagram, like I’m just always learning more stuff about it. So I think I just crammed a bunch of knowledge into that 14 month period.
Wendy:
Yes, that makes sense.
Well hey there families! I am pausing this episode to invite you to a free one hour workshop that I am hosting this month all about disciplining with compassion, connection and firm kindness. If you want to save your seat you can head to the website freshstartfamilyonline.com/discipline. You can save your seat there, but in this free one hour workshop I will teach you three steps to building a strong, compassionate, firm and kind tool kit that works with kids of all ages. You guys this is one of my favorite subjects to teach on besides power struggles – I love that one too – but oh my goodness you guys empowering you to embrace a compassionate discipline mindset and to let go of a punishment-based mindset is my jam and I cannot wait to support yourself head on over freshstartfamilyonline.com/discipline to check out the dates and the times that I’m offering this completely free one hour workshop and I cannot wait to see you at class.
And isn’t that one of the best things about having a parenting podcast is you get to interview all these different people and like every single conversation that I have, I always leave and, and it doesn’t, it’s like a combination. It’s hearing other people speak, right? Like I’ll be inspired when I leave this. And I was saying like as I went to record, I’m all, oh just had a spat with the 14 year old as like literally as I close the door and about to record. And so I’ll leave inspired by what you’ve shared, but I’ll also leave inspired by what I share because as an educator or as someone who is speaking aloud or teaching or inspiring others, you’re always reminded of what you wanna do, right?
So it’s like if you’re, if you’re teaching somebody, you know, a concept or something that you try to do, you leave with the concept like solidified more, right? A lot of people think like, oh you, you have to be per, you must have to be perfect to be an educator or someone who inspires other families. And it’s really not true. It just, it may if you’re, if you’re willing to do the work to become vulnerable and real and that is a journey, right? I don’t know if it was a journey for you, it was a journey for me, but then in the end it just strengthens you. Like it just, if when you teach or when you talk to others, it’s just, it’s really, it really does benefit your own parenting and your own family.
Michelle:
Oh absolutely. And that’s the thing is like people ask me like, you know, I’ve asked every single parenting coach that I am friends with and they’re like, Oh yeah, we like, we all mess up. You know, like everybody messes up, nobody’s perfect. Like you have bad days and you have good days and you have great days and you have really bad days. Like, and that’s okay. And I feel like that’s really important to share that message. So I always tell my, my followers like, it’s okay if you had a, I have a bad day, I’ll tell you I had a bad day. I’ll tell you exactly what happened, I had a terrible day. But like what really solidifies it for me, like you were saying was I make a reel about sharing or I make a reel about, you know, when your kids are fighting or hey you need to be gentle on yourself. And then I like think about it and I’m like, okay, but this also applies to me like I also need to be a gentle myself.
Wendy:
It’s so true. It really is so true. Well let’s talk about this idea of yes gentle parents say no to their kids. And I remember when I first reached out to you to chat about this, it was after we got to know each other when we, you know, did an interview for your show. But I saw you share a reel one day about how you were sitting there eating, I think this is my memory, you were sitting there eating your lunch and it was like just a nice salad or something and your little guy was, you know, having a meltdown on the ground and he just wanted you to hold him or help him and you were just so beautifully and calmly letting him know that no, you were gonna finish your lunch and you were, you would be able to help him in five to 10 minutes.
And it was just so awesome. I loved it. But then afterwards someone had come in and basically, you know, been a little uncomfortable with it and said, you know, I’m sorry my kids are only young for a certain amount of time and like until, until they’re grown or until they’re older, like they always come first. And it was really cool to see you have this exchange with this, this person and it was, you know, dicey at times cuz she, I don’t know, she wasn’t like exactly completely a hundred percent respectful. But nonetheless it opened up the conversation about this like idea of a) saying no to your kids and also taking care of yourself. Like how important it is to take care of yourself in order to be able to thrive as a parent in order to actually be able to apply these conscious parenting strategies or moments or whatever.
It’s all interlaced. Right? So talk to us a little bit about, and before, before I have you chime in on this, I will also say that this is like a common misnomer. Is that the word? Yes. Is misnomer a word?
Michelle:
I think so. Or myth. Maybe it’s a myth.
Wendy:
Myth. It’s a common myth. It’s a common myth that like if you’re practicing gentle, respectful, conscious parenting, positive whatever you wanna call it, that you don’t say no to your kids, right? It’s like it’s permissive parenting people get it really confused. I remember I was teaching at church one time and I was trying to get the guys to like promote it to the dads and a friend called me who like led the dude’s bible study and he was like, Okay, so I hear you want me to promote this class you’re doing? And he is like, Oh I have a question. It’s like, so do you ever say no to your kids? I’m like, Mike, yes. I actually teach parents how to say no more just to do it with respect and kindness and firmness, not with like fear and intimidation and anger and all that kind stuff.
So it just represented so well how people think. You know, that permissive, conscious, gentle, positive parenting is like permissive week. We don’t say no to our kids. So kick us off Michelle, first off your thoughts on that. Tell me your thoughts on that and then we’ll get kind of get into our subpoints that we were gonna discuss.
Michelle:
Yes. So I know exactly what video you’re talking about because I get so much flack on that one. Like
Wendy:
Really?!
Michelle:
and I, yes and I feel bad because I know that what is happening is the people that are triggered by this reel are stuck in martyrdom, they’re stuck in mommy martyrdom , which is what I call it, where they think that they have to do everything at the drop of the hat for their kids. But like they also are very resentful to their children because of it. Yeah. And they take that resentment and they put it on me because they see that I’m not doing that and they feel bad or they feel angry that they’re stuck in this. So I feel bad, I, I understand why people are triggered by it and it, it makes me sad that people are stuck in this loop that they don’t or can’t get out of.
So yeah. Yes. That video is my little guy. He’s crying because he wants me to pick him up. He’s my cleanest child so he wants me to hold him all the time. And I even said in the caption of that reel he has been fed, this is my first meal of the day. Like he’s just crying because he wants me to hold him. Yeah. But that was, that was kind of in the beginning of my conscious parenting journey after I kind of got more focused on me and I realized like my most basic needs need to come first as long as theirs have been met. And that’s what’s important. Like we’re not neglecting our children because we want to eat a salad. Right.
Like I think I even said in that real like, this kid has had two breakfasts and this is my first.
Wendy:
17 snacks!
Michelle:
Yes he is gonna cry until I finished my first meal because I know that if I don’t eat, like I’m going to be more angry. I’m not gonna be the parent I wanna be if I’m hungry.
Wendy:
Yes.
Michelle:
So yeah, that’s, that was that reel and about the whole permissive thing. Yes, I get that all the time. I posted a reel last week about how people think that kids who are raised with gentle parenting don’t have discipline. It’s because they believe that discipline means punishment, discipline and punishment are not the same things. And then of course people chime in and like, well you know, your kids are gonna go jail one day cuz they have no punishment. So like, all right. But yeah, so I think that there is a fine line. I think that a lot of people do get stuck in gentle parenting where they don’t actually know what they’re doing because they don’t have resources like where they’re reading the books about gentle parenting or they have parenting coaches or communities where they really understand the, the foundation of what gentle or conscious parenting is and it becomes permissive.
And I see that a lot. I do. But yeah, I tell my kids no all the time. All the time. Yeah. I tell them more, I tell them no more than I say yes.
Wendy:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think that’s a good point about like try, you know, we of course in our best moments we’re always trying to have compassion for the people who don’t, aren’t quite able to see or understand yet. Right? And I remember one of the things she had said was, I’m sorry but, and I think this was the same girl and it was such a like a highlight, right? To, to just let people know that most likely that’s coming with a judgment on the other side, right? Like one of my girls and my certification program, she had a step, our mother-in-law the other day who had told her her little girl, like who had fallen and skin in her knees, like, Stop it, you’re fine. Like don’t cry basically you’re not allowed to cry.
Something like that. And she had come in behind her and been like, Oh my gosh, like actually we do allow her child to have emotions and cry and, and and she said she got really defensive and she said, I’m sorry but you know, all this new age stuff. She’s like, I raised four, you know, four kids with this stuff and they turned out fine. So it’s like you always know when it’s like, I’m sorry but that there’s a little stinger of like either judgment or you know, it, I mean it can be, I mean we’re, we have platforms where we welcome people to have different views, but you just, when you have that on it, like, I’m sorry but like let’s all just remember like, just take that out of our language cuz it’s never going to open up a conversation in a really like great way.
Michelle:
It’s just judgment. It’s just judgment. And I, I have a, I actually have a boundary against that with my social media. So if anybody comments to me and says I’m sorry but I only respond with, sorry, I’m sorry but statements are not allowed on my page.
Wendy:
Yes. And I love how you hold those firm boundaries. Like that is, it’s so, so, so important Michelle. It’s one of the reasons why I admire you. Love all that. So let’s talk about your viewpoints on why no is not a bad word. Instead how it’s essential for being a healthy human being and kids need to see it modeled in a healthy way to them.
Michelle:
Yes. So one of my things that I’m doing in my reparenting process to heal my own own inner child is that I was always the yes child. And that bred me into being a people pleaser. And so by saying no to my children, I am teaching them that they can also say no and I am trying to teach them not to be people pleasers. Which is huge because if I sacrifice myself by always saying yes to my children, like I said, it’s just going to breed resentment. I’m going to become a martyr and then my children are going to see that I will do anything to make other people happy, including sacrificing myself and that’s not what I want to teach them.
Wendy:
Mm. Yes. So good. I love that. With the compassion, like you know, trying to have compassion for people and what you were talking about of as far as you see it often I think that pendulum swing when people move to the permissive side is I think like you had mentioned earlier, like people know what they don’t wanna do, They don’t wanna do the fear force hitting intimidation, all the things, but they’re so determined not to do that. But then they don’t get their, the support that they pendulum swing to the permissiveness. And I think that’s why it shows up so much. But yes and, and the people pleasing, I’ve had a few clients who have really been aware of this lately that is so beautiful that they’ve started to realize, especially when they go home and visit their parents as an adult and they’re dealing with kind of the fear.
One, one of our bonfire members just last week was saying how she was staying with her parents and she’s just been so proud of herself helped, she’s been like on point with her kids nutrition and they haven’t been doing any sugar and she’s like, it’s so good for the kids. They’re like, they’re like meltdowns have been significantly less, blah, blah blah. And the, she’s like asked her parents like, Hey, could we just not do like a ton of cake or something after dinner And they just like blatantly like by the third night were just not listening. So we were, I was coaching her on how she can approach her parents with confidence but she was saying how aware she is now. Cause we do a lot of work in our, our group around awareness. Like we wanna have that self-awareness and then we also wanna have the self-acceptance like both have to be high.
Cause if you’re super aware of stuff but then you’re hard on yourself or have shame about it, then you’re just like, you’re never gonna be able to change, right? So she was like, this is so fascinating how much I want to please them. Even as you know, a 35 year old woman how it’s still hard for me to speak up and ask for what I want or you know, defend myself or not even defend yourself but speak about why I’m so passionate about this nutrition or this this parenting style that I’m doing. She said it’s because I realize that I’m such a people pleaser. And that’s was her, that was her response. Right? I think a lot, a lot of us who grew up, do you feel like you grew up in like a, a super autocratic like my way or the highway kind of classic type of home?
Michelle:
Yeah, I would say so. I think that a lot of my discipline as a child wasn’t necessarily like hitting like I was spanked but not very often. It was more the fear of it. And my mama has even said like, you know, it wasn’t that I needed to be spanked, it was just, and it was just for me to be scared that I was going to be spanked. I was more scared that I was going to be spanked than the actual spanking itself. So yeah. Yeah, it was very fear based and I think that that’s probably what made a lot of the people pleasing. I have a lot of other childhood issues that I working through as well. But yeah, it’s, it’s a lot of the, I need to be this way because this is what’s going to make my family happy and proud of me.
I need to make good grades because you know, I will, I’m scared of what will happen if I don’t, you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t inwardly, what do you call that where it’s like you’re looking for external validation? It wasn’t internal, it was all external. Yeah, yeah,
Wendy:
Yeah. And speaking of that pendulum, like that’s often what happens, right? Like you either have kids that have a super strong will and might like react to it and start to push back a ton or start to hide, lie like you know, not tell their parents the truth or just rebel. And then you do have the other side of the pendulum which is is that tendency to start to go into the people pleasing because I mean that’s, it’s like, I mean I know it sounds intense but it is a form of trauma when you don’t have that unconditional safety and love, right? Like it’s very conditional. Most of us who grew up in those, those, and that’s the majority of us, right? Cuz our parents had the set of tools that they had at that time.
We now, thank God, have a different set of tools. So it’s just different conditions, different situations, but growing up without like constant safety, right? Like constant unconditional love. So if you’re good you get love and hugs and candy and you know, praise and if you’re bad, you know, you get, you know, maybe, I don’t know, spoken to a certain way or withheld from hug and love. So it’s like the lack of unconditional love but then the actual lack of safety, like always being in that amygdala party, your brain where you’re scared like is today the day that I’m gonna get screamed at or hit? Is today the day? So I think a lot, for a lot of us, it is a trauma response to become just we’ll do anything to stay safe, we’ll do anything to to people please.
So yeah, so I love, I love that but that by saying no to your kids, you’re helping them by modeling for them what it looks like to do things for yourself and how healthy that is. It’s not selfish to take care of yourself. And like that is one of the, the root things that we teach here is cuz that is one of the classic paradigms and kind of traditional is that parenting is that you want your kids to please you. Like you want to make your kids want to please you. And so we really do it, we do really do it differently around here. So good. Okay. Talk to me about how saying no to our kids helps them feel safe and gives them fences so to speak, to help them know where their boundaries lie.
Michelle:
Yes.
Wendy:
Where our boundaries lie, where their boundaries lie, all that good stuff.
Michelle:
So I do wanna say, and I just thought of this is I very, I say no to my kids all the time, but I very rarely say no without explanation. I explain everything to them and it really helps me and them because I, I grew up in a household where it was because I said so type environment and I hated it. And so in my house I really try to be ‘no because’, not ‘because I said so’. No, because this is the real reason why this cannot happen. And so I will say no and a lot of my rules or my boundaries in the house relate to safety.
And so that’s one thing that I’m explaining all the time, No you can’t jump on the couch because you’re gonna fall and you’re gonna get hurt. No you can’t run outside in the front yard by yourself because you might get hit by a car and I can’t see you. It’s always with an explanation as to why and what boundary it represents in our household. So I tell my kids all the time that my job as their mom is to keep them safe. Like that is my number one job. And so whenever I say no and it’s a safety boundary, it’s really easy to explain. It’s like no because my job is to keep you safe and this is not safe. So they know that’s that that that boundary that’s not going to move because it’s my job as their mom
Wendy:
So good. Yes. And it’s it I love, I remember when I learned this, it was just like so enlightening for me to remember that there’s a yes behind every no. And so cuz it is, I have a program called the Firm Kind Parenting Blueprint and then an entire lesson in our Bonfire video library about Setting Firm Limits. And we talk about how for so many of us saying no is so hard because we were taught when we were kids that it’s literally a fricking bad word. Like there is danger if you say no, like it is dangerous. So then you grew up to be an adult and you’re like supposed to be like no child, you can’t have the Oreo.
No you can’t. And it’s freaking hard for people to switch out of it. So one thing that I love teaching cause I record these lessons and then I forget about them like years later. But I remember, I remember I teach about this a lot in that one is to think like, okay well what is the yes behind this? Like if, because you know, we’ll feel guilty a lot of times we’re like, oh they’re just kids. They just wanna have fun and jump on the couch or they feel bad, they just wanna have a cookie. Am I being mean for saying no? And it’s like, well what is my boundary? Like I’m saying yes to their teeth staying healthy and not having to have like five cavities filled when they’re a kindergartner. I’m saying yes to them like spending the weekend in the backyard in the, the mini pool instead of in a cast at the ER.
Like it’s just, I think it’s a simple tweak that you can just ask yourself real quick, Okay to help me stick to this boundary and say no, what am I saying yes to?
Michelle:
Yes. And also especially with toddlers, what I’ve learned is if you’re gonna say no, you need to say yes to something else. So if you’re, if you say no and that’s your boundary, like okay, no you cannot run out in the front yard because I can’t see you and you might get hit by a car but we can go outside for 15 minutes after mommy finishes loading the dishwasher.
Wendy:
Yes.
Michelle:
And that’s huge because like they, no one likes to be told no, I hate being told no I know my kids hate being told no. But if no is my boundary then I need to give them a little wiggle room and something that I’m okay with.
Wendy:
I agree. And also showing them where it is appropriate. Like most of the time, I mean yes there’s the ones where it’s like no you can’t hit your brother, you can’t pull his hair out. Like of course. But most of the time there is a place where they can jump. There is a place where they can have sugar, right? Like here like if, you know I’m not okay with you running in the street right now. No you can’t run around this parking lot. And yes later when we get to the field or the park like now like looking them right in the eyes and saying Now’s your chance, I wanna see you run like the wind because here is where it’s safe. So that’s a, that’s a great point you built bring up. I love that.
I remember a really good story that I had heard. Gosh, it’s been a long time since I remember this story but I don’t know, it’s probably, it was like maybe you might remember, I feel like you’re a lot younger than me, but do you remember the girl Elizabeth Smart who was like kidnapped from her room in Utah? She was like, I feel like she was like 13 years old or something and she was kidnapped from her room and they didn’t find her for like a year or two. The dude like took her and he like had her in the woods and they were, oh my gosh I think it was
Michelle:
Like five years.
Wendy:
Oh
Michelle:
She was gone a Long time.
Wendy:
She had like a baby with them. Oh my gosh. Well my, one of my dear friends and mentors served on a speaking board with her dad and cuz they went on to like have a really beautiful, some type of non-profit or something where they like educate and had help. I don’t know, I don’t know exactly what it is, but it seemed really cool. So Susie spoke on a panel with him and she had told the story about how he had remembered that time and spoke about it and said that was one of the biggest mistakes we ever made was to, to basically give our children the message that no was a bad word because they were never allowed to question authority, especially if it was an elder or someone senior to them.
And they were like, if we could turn back time we would totally do it differently and basically do everything that we’re talking about in this conversation because we know it would’ve made all the difference if we would’ve taught our child like to say no and like hit kick scream like protect yourself, like to trust your gut, like to speak up to have a voice, all these things. And I just thought that was a really powerful story coming from a parent who had a really awful thing happen to his child and then he went on to educate other parents. Like don’t fall into that classic like teaching your kids to never question authority. Like it’s good for them to have a voice and we get to teach them like here’s how you say no and have a voice in a healthy respectful way and there’s absolutely gonna be times where you need to hit, kick scream, freak the heck out.
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Michelle:
So I think it was the consent parenting @ConsentParenting
Wendy:
Rosalia Rivera, I love her. She’s been on the show,
Michelle:
She posted a couple days ago about how exactly what you’re talking about like by teaching your kids in like this authoritative way you’re setting them up in a bad way for them to be abused.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Michelle:
Because they don’t know how to say no and they don’t know how to say no to authority or authoritative figures or adults.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Michelle:
And by teaching our kids how to say no in a healthy way, we are keeping them safe if they were ever in that situation.
Wendy:
Ugh, it’s so powerful. And I don’t know if you saw one, she like tagged me it yesterday and I was like, dang, I’m just coming back from vacation and I’m like still trying to catch up in the social world. But this one the other day I was like, oh my gosh, she had act, it was some type of book. Did you see this one? She had highlighted like it was actually an abuser. So it was a story of an abuser.
Michelle:
Yes, I saw that one.
Wendy:
And oh my gosh, I got chills. I was like, thank you Rosalia for bringing this to the light and I’m due to interview her again this fall. I’m like, ooh, maybe we’ll talk about this one. But she had highlighted how he said that, I don’t know, like he, he was an abuser of young children and I think he was like a young adult or something. And he said basically he went through obviously like thank God after he was caught and in, I don’t know if he was in the penal system or what, but he went through a ton of like trauma and trauma therapy and all these things and he realized and he learned that it was actually his crazy desire for control. That was the key contributor to why he became a perpetrator was because he had grown up in this, this this house or this family where he was never allowed to have control.
He was always like, like you know, you don’t question authority, you like you do not have a voice. It is your job to like, yes ma’am. Yes. So I just thought that was so fascinating. I’m like dang, we need to talk about that more. So there are, there are consequences to not teaching, you know, and allowing your child to be empowered, which is our next one. So let’s talk about that one our, our last point no helps our kids and ourselves stay in an empowered state helping us to remember that we are in charge of taking care of ourselves and expressing ourselves with respect. Cause empowerment is just so huge for all human beings, right?
So what do you think about when we, we talk about that when Michelle
Michelle:
Absolutely and my, it’s so funny because my, my son, when I tell him no, he started to copy me and put it back on me and it’s hilarious. I think it’s so funny. So yesterday for example, I, we had just come back for vacation and so I was trying to get up on emails cause I work from home and he didn’t have summer camp so he was with me and he was like, Mommy, will you play with me? And I was like, Oh you know buddy, I wish I could but I can’t. I’m sorry I really have to do this. I really have to answer emails, I gotta work. And then a couple hours went by or whatever and we were cleaning the playroom, we had the toys to clean up and I said, Hey buddy, do you wanna help me? You know, clean, clean up this mess? And he was like, Oh you know mommy, I’m sorry but I can’t.
And I was like, Oh why can’t you? And he was like just really busy. I gotta, I gotta work. I’m sorry but I can’t, I wish I could.
Wendy:
So cute.
Michelle:
Like that’s so funny to me. So
Wendy:
You have the awareness around it.
Michelle:
Yes. And it makes him feel good. Like he wants to feel like, oh mommy can say this, I can say this too. And so I’m like, yeah, okay, I’ll allow it. I’ll give you about 10 minutes and I’m gonna ask again. But
Wendy:
That’s where power struggle strategies come in. That’s where you have power struggle, dissolving strategies you’ve been, but like all the things, right? Like it’s not a panic button. Oh my gosh. He said no. It’s just like, oh okay. Right. Like I have options Now this doesn’t mean you’re just gonna let him not clean up, but like you said, give it 10 minutes. And I’m sure you came in with some dissolving strategies and I’m sure you got the job done still.
Michelle:
Yes, yes. He’s so I think, and I’m just now thinking of this, it’s kind of funny. So I say no to them all the time and now he’s really started to say no to me. He’s almost four. So he’s very like, I I got this. Yeah. And it’s funny cuz my mom who she understands why we parent this way, I don’t think that she 100% agrees with it, but she definitely understands it and she respects it. She said something last week, she was like, Your kids say no all the time, why did you teach them that it’s okay for them to say no, it’s the worst thing you’ve ever done. And I was like, Why? She’s like, because they say no all the time. They say no to me all the time. They say no to you all the time. It’s disrespectful. I said, Why is it disrespectful?
She was like,
Wendy:
Agh good question.
Michelle:
Because they’re not listening to to what they’re what I’m telling them. I’m like, Well is it important? And she’s like, Well no, but they need to listen to me. And I’m like, why? It’s so funny cause she’s like scrambling for answers and she’s like, Well I guess I, I don’t know. And I was like, well if it’s important, it’s about safety. Yes. But I don’t think that them saying no is directly disrespectful. It’s just them being toddlers and saying, Oh we see that you say no to us all the time. I’m gonna try it too. It’s not disrespectful mom. And then I think that once she realized that she like thought about it and was like, okay, you’re right. It’s, they’re not just being blatantly disrespectful, they’re just trying to fill up their power cups.
That’s it.
Wendy:
Yeah. Yes. And they’re humans, right? Like one of my favorite responses to when kids say no is, Oh I can see that you don’t want to and we still need to get it done. So how are we gonna make this work? You know, like bringing in that idea of like meeting in the middle or peaceful conflict resolution or patience like you had just said with like waiting 10 minutes. Like there are so many options on how to respond versus the classic like, don’t you dare say no to me, Say no to me again and I’ll give you something to cry about. Right? Like that’s the classic, like that’s such a great story because that is what I think still triggers a lot of us is because we think, and so what a beautiful way to end this episode, Michelle, is just to have all of us really remember that it’s okay to like slow down and, and think like, oh, why does this seem disrespectful to me?
Like what, what is it about this? Like if it’s the way that they’re saying it for sure, like teach them in our calm time how to say no in a respectful way. Like no thank you. You know, or, or could I please have five more minutes? Like, like, you know, you can mentor your kids on how to say no, but just the classic like thinking by them saying no, they’re being naughty, disobedient, that type of stuff. Then let’s challenge that, that thought pattern and no, that there are just so many things you can do to respond to that. And I can see that you don’t want to and like, and is one of my favorite words because it, you know, if we, like I, I’ve taken a few words outta my language over the last few years ‘hard’ and ‘but’ have been two of the biggest ones.
Someone did catch me on Instagram the other day, they were so funny. It must have been a student. And I said, man, I’ve been in Hawaii and then I was off for a while and I’m like, Oh it’s hard to come back to social, you know, show your face and be on camera again. And she goes in the dm she goes like, Did you just say hard? Oh it’s hard Wendy. I’m like, Oh, you’ve got me. I’m like, no, it’s just a transition. It’s just a journey. And so it’s been empowering for me to take hard outta my language but has been another one, right? So like I can see, see it like, cuz if we say to our kids like, okay, I can see you don’t want to, but like you need to get your butt over here. Right? Like you just know, you can feel the tone is like, it negates whatever you’ve just said.
But when you use the word and it’s like, Hey I get it, of course you don’t wanna clean up this mess. Of course you wanna keep watching your show. Of course you don’t wanna go to school. Like I get it, you’re just coming off summer break and we still gotta make it happen. So how are we gonna work together? And it just sets up that like teamwork and mutual respect from such a young age.
Michelle:
Absolutely. And and going back to what you were saying is just like when that’s conscious parenting, right? Is when your kid looks at you and says no to you and you immediately have that reaction of like, oh that’s so disrespectful. Like that’s just you feeling that that’s your inner child talking to you cuz your inner child’s saying, Yeah, you would never have been allowed to say no to your parents like that. What would they have done to you if you would’ve said that to them? And if we can like have that thought process and like zip it for a minute and like not act on what we want to say in that moment and think, okay, yeah, I think it’s disrespectful.
because my inner child’s telling me that I would’ve been spanked for that or yelled at for that or whatever. Yeah. But what’s really happening is that my child’s telling me that that’s their boundary right now. It doesn’t mean that that doesn’t happen. Like my kids tell me no all the time and like we still get to the same endpoint as someone who may have spanked in that, that situation. But our connection is way better than someone who took that course of action.
Wendy:
Yeah. And, and you have true power with your kids, right? Like, you know, if if the external stuff worked and like bribery rewards, spanking, fear force, like if that stuff worked, I feel like parenting would be easy, right? Like, but it doesn’t like, and I know people have challenged me in the most beautiful way with what works because man, I’ve had a huge influx of people come in lately that are like from very like traditional and I say that like, I don’t even like to say that, but come from homes where like so called Christian parenting was used and it was like intense the stories and one so lovingly challenged me cuz I’ll always say it doesn’t work.
And she’s like, Wendy, it actually does, like, it caused me to become a people pleaser. It set me up for an abusive relationship. Like it worked on me, it stopped the behavior, right? And so I was like, oh, you’re like, you’re right. I’m gonna change my language around that. It does like, it’s your definition of what works, right? Like, and what I was gonna say is like long term it does not work. There are consequences. There are just, you just don’t want that. What you want long term to work is true power where your child knows that you’re on their team, that they wanna respect you, that you are able to influence them instead of force them to comply.
And if you’re using fear force, intimidation, bribery, threats, rewards as like your main mojo, you just, you’re not using true power, you’re just using force, right? Like so, and it’s just, and I’ve seen it now that my kids are tweens and teens and I know you’re gonna see it and everybody practices his work will see it one day. There’s a significant difference in the kids who are raised in this capacity and once they become teenagers, they just are way less likely to rebel. It’s not that they’re perfect, but it’s just really beautiful to see what happens because their parents actually have true power and authentic influence over their lives to help them, you know, get out of a, you know, if they make a mistake or mentor them on how to handle themselves in, out, out in the world when we can’t be hovering over their shoulders once they’re in middle in high school.
So such true power comes with this. So, Oh my goodness. So good Michelle. Well we are at our hour, so we will wrap this up. We could chat for a long time, but tell listeners where they can find you, tell ’em about the podcast, all the things. We’ll make sure we put everything in the show notes Of course. But tell tell everyone where to come see you.
Michelle:
Sure. So my main platform is Instagram. You can find me instagram.com. I am @conscious.hippie.mama. My podcast is Parental Seasons. It’s on pretty much anywhere you stream your podcast and you can go listen to my episode with Wendy on that. And I am currently working on something that I’m calling my super top secret project that hopefully be rolling out in the next couple weeks. So keep an eye out for that. But I think it’ll be really helpful for a lot of people who always ask me for advice on how to get started with conscious parenting.
Wendy:
Oh, I love it. I was, I’m wondering like, I’m sure if they just Google Parental Seasons Fresh Start Wendy or something, it’ll come up, but I wonder what episode that was. Oh, well Google it families go, go find our conversation. Cause that would be a really good one for you to listen to. I think we talked, did we talk about discipline? What did we talk about on? I don’t even Remember.
Michelle:
I don’t remember.
Wendy:
Our brains- It’s been a while. Oh power struggles. We talked about power struggles, I think.
Michelle:
Yes.
Wendy:
And strong-willed kids. My favorite thing to talk about. So yes. Awesome, Michelle. Well, thanks for taking time out of your evening tonight to be with us today. I know listeners are really gonna enjoy this episode so much, and just thanks for having the courage and the bravery to share your voice and your light in the world. You really are helping so many families and moms and parents, and helping people to break really painful generational cycles and your work matters, and we really appreciate and admire you.
Michelle:
Thank you so much, Wendy. Thanks for having me.
Wendy:
All right families, that’s a wrap. I hope you love today’s episode as much as I loved recording it for you, and if you’d love to get supported more on the compassionate discipline front, remember we are teaching and just focusing a lot on compassionate discipline this month here at Fresh Start Family. Then I want to come over and grab that free learning guide we have where we’ll help you build logical consequences that work with kids of all ages, and/or if you want to join us for our free workshop: Three Steps to Building a Strong, Compassionate, Kind and Firm Discipline Tool Kit, I’d love to have you join me for that also! So take your pick– choose one, choose both, but I really wanna support you further on the discipline front. I know many of you are really struggling and just feeling really disconnected and hating when you have to discipline your kids, and I can help change that for you. So the discipline guide is over at freshstartfamilyonline.com/disciplineguide and then to learn about the dates and the times that I am teaching the free discipline workshop, you can save your seat there over at freshstartfamilyonline.com/disciplineclass. All right families thanks for listening and can’t wait to see you inside of the learning guide and at the Discipline Class very soon.
For links and more info about everything we covered in today’s episode, head to freshstartfamilyonline.com/142.
Stella:
For more information, go to freshstartfamilyonline.com. Thanks for listening, families, have a great day.
