This episode of The Fresh Start Family Show features the incredible Dr. Caroline Heldman – author, speaker, activist, and Executive Director of the Representation Project, whose documentaries include the eye-opening & life-changing film “The Mask You Live in.”
In a society that places undue pressure on men and boys to act and behave in certain ways, there is an ever rising need to push back on limiting beliefs that hold them back from experiencing the wholeness of life.
Wendy, Terry and Dr. Heldman speak to the harmful and dangerous ideals around masculinity that society creates and why breaking those constraints down by allowing men and boys to feel all their emotions and perform duties outside the acceptable box benefits everyone.
We, as parents – have the responsibility and privilege to help flip the narrative around “acceptable” emotions and roles for our men and boys.
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Episode Highlights
- Men increased their primary caregiving responsibilities during the Pandemic and overwhelmingly reported positive feedback and improved well-being
- Our society sets up boys to create their core identity around rejecting all things feminine
- Toxic masculinity is a systemic problem that starts in the home.
- Boys and men are only publicly encouraged to express the emotion of anger instead of feeling the broad range we were all meant to experience
- Boys and men 4x more likely to die by suicide due to the pressures to be “man enough”, not ask for help and surppress emotions
- The fragility of masculinity means that men and boys have to constantly “prove” their masculinity through violence and sexual conquest
- We can use humor with our kids to expose the absurdity and antiquated toxic beliefs adults use like “don’t be a girl”, “boys don’t cry” etc
- Men really are the greatest influencers on boys, which means we need dads/teachers/coaches etc to step up and encourage boys to step away from damaging traditional ideas about masculinity and step toward re-defining what it means to be a man
Resources Mentioned
The Representation Project Website
The Mask You Live in documentary
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Here is the episode transcript!
This episode of the Fresh Start Family Show is brought to you by the Fresh Start Experience, a full support experience for parents looking for clear answers and easy to implement guidance on how to redirect their children’s misbehavior with integrity, connection, and effectiveness. The fresh short experience combines teaching and the power of community to fast track cooperation and results. I have developed a unique teaching style that has helped thousands of parents actually see success when learning and implementing new positive parenting strategies in their home. Are you ready to create a family legacy and memories that bring you joy every dang day?
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Wendy:
Well, hello listeners. I’m so happy that you are back for a new episode. I’m your host, Wendy Snyder, positive parenting educator and family life coach, and today we have a really special episode with Dr. Caroline Heldman about challenging toxic masculinity to free our men and boys. I’m really excited for this conversation, Terry, and I really enjoyed getting to know Dr. Caroline Heldman better. I’ll tell you a little bit more about her and then I will welcome you a little bit more to this episode. So, Dr. Caroline Heldman is the Executive Director of the Representation Project and a political science professor in the Department of Critical Theory and Social Justice at Occidental College in Los Angeles.
She’s just up the road from us. Her research specializes in media, the presidency and systems of power. Dr. Heldman has published six books, including Protest Politics in the Marketplace, consumer Activism in the Corporate Age, women Power and Politics, the Fight for Gender Equality in the United States, and Madam President, gender and Politics on the Road to The White House. She’s also been active in real world politics as a professional pollster campaign manager and commentator for CNN and Spectrum One. She has also been featured on the popular documentaries Misrepresentation, The Mask You Live In, which you’re gonna hear us talk about a lot today, The Hunting Ground, Informant, Equal Means Equal, Liberated, Nevertheless, and The Great American Lie.
She co-founded the New Orleans Women’s Shelter and the Lower Ninth Ward Living Museum. She has also co-founded End Rape on Campus, Faculty Against Rape and End Rape Statute of Limitations. She serves as Board chair of the Alturas Institute, a civic engagement nonprofit. Dr. Heldman is currently curating with first Civil Rights Museum in New Orleans with Ms. Leona Tate, one of the four little girls who desegregated the Deep South in 1960 and is the board president of this nonprofit. So as you can tell you guys, Dr. Caroline Heldman is one inspirational lady, and Terry and I first got to know her when she was featured in The Mask You Live In.
Again, that is the documentary that you’re gonna hear us talk so much about today. That really was pivotal for Terry and I to be able to understand why so many men that Terry, so many friends and family members that Terry knows himself, and having been raised a man, it just really helped him understand why it can be so challenging to be a man and to be a boy, and to be someone who is operating as a human being in this world, but told that, you know, you need to be tough and that, you know, feelings are for wusses and all those messages that are so common in our culture. So I really enjoyed learning from Dr.
Caroline Heldman today because this documentary is one that I believe every single parent on the planet should watch, especially like, especially if you are raising boys. You guys, you’ll hear us talk about where you can watch it. It’s very easy to find, very easy to rent, but it is, you know, probably an hour and a half just like I recommend The Race to Nowhere documentary. This is the other one that I recommend to pretty much every single family that I work with through the Fresh Start Experience. So I want you to make sure you go watch that. It’ll be so helpful as you’re raising sons, but also, you know, so many parents that I work with really struggle with their spouse not being on board, especially when it comes to compassionate discipline in the beginning, especially when it comes to using emotional literacy in their home to redirect misbehavior, to get to their root causes of misbehavior that has to do with emotions and needs and all those types of things, limiting beliefs.
But there’s a lot of emotions in the work that we do here at Fresh Start Family, and there’s a lot of parents who struggle when their spouse isn’t on board. And I just think this documentary really explains why so many men just take a little bit longer to accept and fully, I think, incorporate positive parenting into their life as a parent. Now we see it all the time through our Fresh Start Experience, through the families that we support all around the world. Like usually what happens is mom goes first, she has the courage to step forward and, you know, make a change, start learning new tools, start changing her mindset around misbehavior and what’s going on in the home, and how she can redirect her children towards better behavior.
How she can, she can discipline, and even when her spouse isn’t on board, then if she just has the courage to go first and hold the family in the light, so to speak, while she’s getting educated and trying new things and having bravery to do that, then we see so often that the men follow suit, whether it’s three months or six months or you know, a year down the road. And we always, we make sure that we celebrate that within our Fresh Start community because it’s a big deal. And again, it just takes courage for the mom to go first, but the, and that’s not always the case, right? Like there are so many families who dad is on board from the beginning. Terry was one of those guys.
I mean, there are just so many rad dads who are just like, heck yes, this makes sense to me. I don’t wanna hurt and harm my kid. Teach me how to redirect them with grace and integrity and firm kindness and teach important life, life lessons, you know, in a way where you’re still still a strong leader in your home, but you don’t have to use these heavy handed fear and forced tactics. So not everybody is like that, right? But like I said, from my experience of helping thousands of parents now to this point, this is just really, really common. So I think this documentary, and I think what you’ll hear us talk with Dr. Caroline Heldman about helps us have compassion for the men in our lives who have been culturally conditioned to believe all of this BS, right?
Like, which you’ll hear us talk about. So anyways, I’m really excited for you to hear this conversation. You guys, please share this. If you love this conversation, please share it to your socials. I’m always over on Instagram hanging out. Make sure you tag me. I’m @FreshStartWendy. I really love to have conversations with you guys. Just today I got a few DMs from people who were listening to a podcast this week and just stopped, paused for a second, came over, shot me a DM, and were like, wow, this is really impactful. This is helping me understand X, Y, and Z. Thank you so much. And so it’s just really fun to be able to conversate with you guys in a very, you know, casual and fun way over there on Instagram. So make sure you tag me and then text your friends and family too.
You know, if you have like an old school mother-in-law that doesn’t do podcast or you know, a cousin who is like just not on social, text her and say, Hey, you gotta listen to this episode, or you gotta check out the Fresh Start Family Show. It’s the best way that you can say thank you to Terry and I for creating these episodes for you. We just, we love doing it, but you sharing is really just the best way that you can help us here at Fresh Start Family. So without further ado, enjoy this episode you guys. And last thing I’ll say is, if you haven’t yet grabbed one of our, you know, our most popular Quick Start Learning Guides, our learning bundles, we’re calling them now.
It’s kind of a new way that we’re helping families in the new year who are new to Positive Parenting and are really looking to kind of have like a quick start into like, Hey, tell me what you teach. Tell me the basics, get me some fast results with my kids listening better and cooperating more. We now have some quick start learning bundles, and the one that we are featuring right now is our Strong-Willed Kids Power Struggles Learning bundle. So you can head on over to the website, freshstartfamilyonline.com and grab your free learning guide and the free class that comes with this Quick Start Learning Bundle. And you’ll just be able to get some fast results, some fast answers on just specific tools and mindset shifts you can have in your home today, tonight, and tomorrow to help your kids listen better and cooperate more without having to rely on fear, force intimidation, bribery, rewards, all that stuff that makes you feel like crap when you lay your head on your pillow at night.
So head on over freshstartfamilyonline.com. That also will drop you on to our weekly email list where I reach out every single week with new podcast episodes, with encouragement, with tips, with also specials that we’re having on our educational programs when we do those. So it’s just a great way to stay in contact with me. All right, you guys, when without further ado, help me welcome Dr. Caroline Heldman to the show and enjoy this episode.
Stella:
Well, hey there, I’m Stella. Welcome to my mom and dad’s podcast, the Fresh Start Family Show. We’re so happy you’re here. We’re inspired by the ocean, Jesus, and rock and roll, and believe deeply in the true power of love and kindness. Together we hope to inspire you to expand your heart, learn new tools, and strengthen your family. Enjoy the show.
Wendy:
Well, hey there families, and welcome to a new episode of the Fresh Start Family Show. Terry and I are really excited to be here with Caroline Heldman, who is the executive director of the Representation Project. Welcome to the show, Caroline.
Caroline:
It’s wonderful to be with both of you.
Wendy:
Yay. Well, today you guys, we have a incredible episode planned for you. This one was born out of our love for the documentary That Mask You Live in, that Terry and I saw probably about what, five years ago now, Terry? It’s been a while. Yeah,
Terry:
It, it’s been a little while, but it definitely left an impact and definitely if you have not checked it out, anybody listening, you should definitely mandatory watch.
Wendy:
Yes. So we’re gonna talk about a few different things today. Number one, how traditional masculinity is harmful to boys and men. Number two, how gender is socially constructed. And number three, how we have the power to construct genders in ways that are beneficial to everyone. And Caroline, before we get going, will you tell us just a little bit more, I, I let all the listeners know, really read to them your incredible professional bio before we got started. You are just doing really amazing things in the world, but tell us a little bit more about your story, about why you’re so passionate about doing the work that you do and what you do maybe on a day-to-day basis nowadays up in LA.
Caroline:
Well, thank you. Yeah, so my interest in this, in the topic of healthy masculinity runs deep from childhood, although of course I didn’t have the language back then. Yeah, I grew up in a hyper gendered household where I wasn’t, you know, allowed to wear pants or cut my hair and my brothers retreated very differently. And I saw the negative effects of very rigid gender roles early on, didn’t have the language, but knew that something was up and something was off and something was unfair. And I think for a lot of us, it springs from, you know, girls seeing differences in the way that that boys are treated and men are treated. But then later on realizing, you know, the negative effects of that on the men in our lives and the profoundly negative impacts of not only being raised with this idea of entitlement, which then ends up setting up expectations later that are, that can be pretty damaging, but also the bifurcation of head and heart and you know, not being raised as boys to not be able to show emotions and be a full human being.
And I saw a lot of that firsthand in a very rigidly gendered household. So my today, day-to-day today is really just fighting rigid gender norms and stereotypes in lots of different ways, primarily through media representation. Project was founded by Jennifer Siebel Newsom, who is now the first partner of California. And so her work, you know, dovetails with my academic work and, you know, have been on this journey for a long time together of really exposing the damage to people of all genders of, you know, traditional masculinity, but also, you know, the, the confines of traditional femininity and the messages we’re getting from media. And so we put out films that raise awareness about this.
We put out research and engage in public conversations and Missrepresentation when it was released in 2011, started a national conversation about how girls are impacted by media. And then The Mask You Live in, as you note came out in 2015. And it talks a lot about the negative effects of messages that boys and men get, a lot of them from media, but also from, from peers, from mothers, from fathers. And how that disproportionately, you know, leads to high risk behaviors, leads to mental health problems that go unaddressed. And I’m sure, we’ll, we’ll dive into this, but we believe that media is a very powerful model of change in the sense that it launches national conversations that can shift hearts and minds.
And of course that’s what both of you are doing, Terry and Wendy, right? And trying to reach audiences and educate them about these same issues.
Wendy:
Oh, amazing. And so you guys have now made four films, right? So you have, maybe, maybe just go through all of them again. Of course. You’ve got the Mask You Live in May- let me see if I can get ’em all The Mask You Live in, Missrepresentation, the Great American Lie. And then you have your newest one called Fair Play, right, which is all about like gender kind of equality or roles in the family unit, right? Which I think is gonna be so fascinating for our listenership base.
Caroline:
Yes. So Fair Play just released folks can find it on streaming services and this month, later this month we’ll have corporate community and educational screenings. But the film is it precisely that Wendy, it’s looking at the negative effects of gender inequality at home and how it affects mothers and fathers and lots of different arrangements, how it negatively affects kids and how it negatively affects society. And so like The Mask You Live in, it’s a very loving look at what men want and what their lives could be like. Were they not constrained by society? And in fact, we know from a recent study from Equa Mundo that men increase their primary caregiving responsibilities during the pandemic.
And they overwhelmingly about 80% of men have very positive things to report that they like spending time, more time with their children, that it improved their wellbeing. And so there’s really great data that, you know, fathers want to be more involved in domestic and care work in the home. But there are a lot of constraints on that from, you know, corporations not incentivizing a good work life balance for anyone. I would argue certainly not, not men, but also, you know, a lot of societal messages about men not engaging in care work and how it feminizes them and how it, it decreases their value. And so I feel for, for fathers, we’ve certainly seen an improvement along the lines in terms of the number of hours fathers spend in domestic and care work and the time they’re spending with their children.
But they’re still so heavily constrained that, you know, women are, are doing about two thirds of the work in the home in heterosexual couples.
Wendy:
Right. Amazing. I can’t wait, I can’t wait to watch that flick. I am lucky to have a dude that is, I mean, you probably do more than I do.
Terry:
You heard it here first, ladies gentlemen.
Wendy:
Oh, that’s amazing.
Terry:
I mean, not keeping score, but it, I I just think it’s gotta be, and I think especially cuz you are so immersed in this, this work and the data and uncovering all of this, but it, it’s gotta be very shocking, I’m sure as you’re starting to unpack so many of these norms that have just been there for generations and generations. But I also think, and I love that you’re taking technology and media as a way to flip it on its head and say, okay, instead of just talking about it, we can really put it out there and, and cause some changes within this generation right now because we have such, such access to be in people’s homes and in people’s ears to say, Hey, let’s not just take all these things for granted anymore or just say that that is the norm.
Like, let, let’s, let’s question the norm. And like you said, it’s like people by not adhering to the norm can live a more happy, you know, life. And, and as a dad hearing what you just said, I’m like, amen. Yes. I love being there for all my kids’ moments where, where maybe just one generation previous to me and my dad’s generation, it was like, well, no, your place, if you’re not out providing or out doing the things, you’re, you’re actually not doing your job. You’re not doing your role. So I’m very thankful to be in this space right now and to, to realize that you can do it a different way and still provide in, in many ways. So yeah.
Terry:
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
Caroline:
And Terry, isn’t it a wonderful moment where we can look at this and say, you know, these are human constructions, these, these are human rules. We are basing what we’re doing by and large on tradition on what our parents did and passing those norms along. And you know, the, the younger generation of men, gen Z, younger millennials are really turning it on its head. They’re, we have not a achieved gender parity in the home, but young men are much more likely to be spending time with their children to be spending time working in the home and to value that work. And I think it really speaks to us as a culture too, that we actually need to value, we need to degender and value care work in general. The Great American Lie, which is our film that came out in 2019, looks at how as a culture we don’t value this work.
And so it’s invisible labor, it’s unpaid labor and it’s labor that mostly falls on the back of women as, and particularly on poor women and women of color, they disproportionately carry that burden. And what would our culture look like if we decided, A, this is work and B, it’s valuable. And of course it is valuable. I mean, what is more valuable than producing humans who have vibrant, you know, hearts and minds and lives and high wellbeing. And I can’t think of a, a more pressing time than the, the mental health crisis right now that we’re experiencing with young people as a result of covid. There’s no, I would argue more important work to be done right now than, than parenting in the household.
Wendy:
I love it. And I know it’s, it’s so meaningful to me too when you have so much research, right, to back back your work. It’s like, I have a dear friend who’s a poly sci professor too, and I know that you guys, you do your research and it is amazing how much it supports and inspires people to create the changes, right? When you actually see this percentage or this percentage that want to do things differently, but they just don’t feel like they, they know how or whatever it may be. So it’s amazing, we’re excited to be here today and let’s just bring it back to a little bit of what we see in our day-to-day, right? So we have members from all over the world, we work with families, 15 different countries now, and we see it all over the place.
And you know, just to highlight a few things though to like get us going in this conversation. So it’s more like act, it’s, I want it to be like very practical applications so we can understand like how this applies to our young men especially. But like in our own personal life, we see it all the time in our son’s sports especially. So our son is just, we made him wait till he was like 11 to play flip flag football, but because I was terrified of the coaches and sure enough, we’re already starting to see it. So just last week, one of his buddies who’s in fourth grade, a friend on his team fell down and got hurt on the football field. I mean, this is flag football. And the coach, he started crying and the coach started screaming at him, go get up, don’t be such a pussy.
And so that was for a, you know, nine or 10 year old just in our circle. We definitely, when we saw this screening a few years ago, Tony Hawk had served on the board, obviously very famous skateboarder and had just had shared how so much when he was coming up in the skateboarding industry as a young kid was so like, you know, over hyper masculine. Like same message, don’t be a pussy, get
Terry:
Up. Well I think it was actually his message was more about mainstream society, skateboarding. He might seem, everybody might seem like, oh, Tony Hawk, you’re so cool, you’re so cool. Growing up a skateboarder in his world, he was not cool. He was, he was bullied. I think it was the, the, it was everybody else against him. He was, you know, I, I’ve heard many, many stories from him including that night that when he spoke we did that screening. So yeah, I just wanted to clarify. It’s not the skateboarding industry. I think that’s
Wendy:
Terry’s a skateboarding, like no not skateboarding
Terry:
Quite, quite, quite the opposite actually. The skateboarding industry has been so, like, you’re right, it’s one of the most open-minded cultures in, in the world.
Wendy:
Yep.
Terry:
But it was everybody else.
Wendy:
Yes. And then I was just asking my team this morning, Hey team, we’re talking to Caroline today and, and what do you, you know, and, and one of ’em had said, well one of the labels that got put on her little boy when he, I think he was in the first grade, it was a substitute teacher had labeled him as a sensitive Sally when he fell out of his chair on his desk. And she said, to this day, it is wild how tough it is for him as a 12 or 13 year old to shake that label. So cry baby. We also have, we had, we had some good friends on the block that moved, but I mean we just watched them over and over again, tell their little boy at the age of three that boys don’t cry. That it was just an abundant amount of messages that was like a dagger to our heart every time we heard it.
So those are the type of things that were, we’re seeing just all around us in our own personal life. And then of course this film, the Mask You Live in that we really hope everyone goes and sees. It’s so easy to stream through your guys’ website and we’ll make sure we link it in the show notes page. But it really is, I always say it’s, it’s mandatory for every parent in my opinion, and especially if you’re raising young men. But it is, it’s just, it’s wild how these messages are given everywhere. And then maybe you could just as we get, as we get going here, Caroline, I loved what you talk about as far as like the great setup. Would you tell us just a little bit about that? Because obviously the boys are, many men are getting these messages, young men getting this message from a very young age and it has an effect.
And tell us what, you know, your thoughts on that.
Quick pause on this episode families to tell you some very exciting news that my team and I have decided to extend our special promotion on the Fresh Start Experience open enrollment. I know so many of you were really wanting to wrap up all of your lessons from the New Year kickstart challenge that we did last week and then also talk to your spouse or partner about joining the Fresh Start Experience. So now you have a few more days to get into the program. Now if you’ve already joined the Fresh Start Experience, hooray! I hope you are loving getting to know your new learning platform, watching your tour videos and having fun completing orientation. And maybe you’ve even started pushing play on your Foundations Course Lessons.
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And just a crazy, insane, amazing amount of parents who have successfully ditched the old school parenting tactics that rely on threats, yelling, punishment, and external controls, and now are fluent in the language of positive parenting, compassionate discipline, connected communication, and shame free parenting. I could go on and on you guys at the list of successes that this incredibly brave, humble, strong, and committed AF group of parents have created. And I wanna add your name to the list. Now is the time to join the Fresh Start Experience as enrollment doors are wide open with a reduced joining fee of over 60% plus an opportunity to receive two months free when you join with an annual plan.
As I mentioned earlier, doors were supposed to close on February 7th, but I had so many of you reach out saying, Wendy, I just need a little bit more time. I need to talk to my spouse. Can we just have a few more days? So I’ve extended it for one more week for you. So you have until February 14th at midnight Pacific to come into the Fresh Start Experience through the special promotion. Just head to freshstartfamilyonline.com/joinnow. Don’t spend another day feeling alone in your parenting journey wishing you knew what to do when your child pushes boundaries, challenges the rules, shows disrespect or makes a mistake. You deserve to feel fully supported and confident when you lay your head on your pillow at night.
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Right now you have until February 14th at midnight to take advantage of this extended special offer and join at this special rate. I cannot wait to see all of you inside the Fresh Start Experience so we can spend 2023 together creating family legacies of our dreams. Okay, back to the show.
Caroline:
Well, and you’ve just described it, right, Terry and Wendy, you’ve just described the great setup, which is that, so what is in common with all of the terms you use, right? So pussy cry like a girl, all of it is about boys creating their core identity around rejecting everything that is feminine. And I think it’s a great setup because we raised them literally to internalize the idea that they’re worth their value and their identity come from rejecting everything that is feminine. And yet, you know, at age 18 or whenever we expect them to respect girls and women, it doesn’t work that way. Right? We are essentially raising boys to base their core identity around misogyny, right?
And misogyny is the devaluation or the hatred of the feminine or women. And we put the, we encode this in their social DNA and then we’re surprised when they have an issue seeing women as full of human beings. And it comes out in a lot of different ways. And this isn’t some big sh you know, shaking my finger at boys or men calling it the great setup actually identifies it as a cultural problem. It’s a systemic problem. And yeah, if we look at the primary purveyors of this, certainly it’s media, but it’s, it’s coaches. But where does it start? It primarily starts in the home and it primarily starts with parents. And who is the primary caregiver? In most situations it’s going to be a woman, right? So at the end of the day, we as a culture are passing this along.
You know, it’s, it’s tragic in, in a lot of ways. I think one way is tragic is of course that it, it sets up boys to not respect women, period. It also sets up boys to really bury their emotions. And of course a wonderful part of being human is experiencing broad range of emotions. And the only emotion that we publicly encourage boys and men to exhibit is anger. And of course we don’t label it an emotion because that’s inconsistent with boys and men being emotional except anger is, is an incre. It’s, it’s an emotion that tend, if we bottle it up, it tends to come out in ways that are not very healthy. And so what we see is a number of things happening because of the ways in which we construct masculinity and I’ll say construct cuz there’s nothing natural about it.
It shifts all the time, which means we have the power to shift it. But the traditional box of masculinity that we put boys in teaches them that they have to be in control, they have to be assertive, perhaps aggressive. They have to use violence or the threat of violence in order to prove their manhood. They also, you know, are encouraged to engage in sexual escapades in order, you know, and consume a lot of, of women, if they’re heterosexual or consume a lot of, have a lot of sex in order to prove their manhood. And all of these things, you know, leave them in a position where they’re less happy. They’re almost four times more likely to die by suicide than girls and women. And that’s that alone.
Wendy:
Wow.
Caroline:
Just full stop. 3.8 times more likely. Right? So it means that boys and men are hurting, it means that they’re not getting the help they need. And we have to look at why that is. Well, it all goes back to the core identity. We discourage boys and men from seeking medical care when they need it. Boys and men are less compliant with medical care when they do finally seek it. Men are less likely to seek mental healthcare when they need it. And that’s, you know, that it’s a, a core part of, of getting healthy. They’re also more likely to engage in high-risk behaviors. And so what we see is the ways in which we’ve constructed traditional masculinity are literally killing boys and men at higher rates than women at every age for all of the factors I just identified.
So in our work, it’s not about, again, shaking a finger at boys and men, it’s about looking at the systems that create unhealthy situations and it’s about working towards, toward men’s liberation for their own freedom, for their own wellbeing, for their own safety. And there are lots of different ways in which you can raise boys to be different. But I think the first step is identifying that the box of the, the man box that we force boys into is super unhealthy for everybody.
Wendy:
Hmm. It really is. And that man, that statistic again is just another example of the research that is showing why the systemic problem here is so in need of a change, 3.8 times more likely to die by suicide. It’s wild. Right? So I thought of one more way that this has shown up in our personal world lately. So our daughter just turned 15 and so we’re starting to see like without, without this type of work being in the home, what’s happening to the majority of her teenage friends, right? So the majority of her teenage friends who are have having a lot of relationship strife in their life with their parents, they’re challenged in school, they might not have a sport or music that they super thrive and feel good in.
And you know, they’re just teenage woes, right? Like the girls have a tendency to just start getting wasted, like drinking drugs and complete cattiness. Like, it it like a lot of just mean girl type of stuff. Like, and then the boys, you’re starting to see it, there’s just violence starting. They’re of course they’re, they’re starting to do these drugs and alcohol too, but to like bury their emotions cuz like a lot, most kids aren’t taught to what to do with healthy emotions, but then especially the men, especially the young boys. And then, you know, there’s just these fights pop that you see, the fights starting to pop up right at age four. They’re 14 and a half years old. And so just a few weeks ago there was like a stabbing like with 14, 15 year olds at like, and it’s just so, it’s like, again, this is just our own little personal circle, but you can see that the boys who are becoming young men are really starting to just fall into this idea that, you know, like solving your problems with your fist or aggression or violence makes you manly.
And there’s just, I, I’m, see I’m seeing it. I’m starting to see it more. So. And one more thing I was gonna say too, that, which is so cool about this documentary after hearing everything that you said, Caroline, is I had a private client who was about 16 and, and struggling with when he went to a new school and he was a cancer survivor, so he was a real little guy, right? Like, and, and the traditional masculinity stuff, I think just hung him up. So I had him watch this film and I’ll never forget, like the next day we talked and his mom actually texted me that night and she was like, oh my gosh, he’s like on fire right now. He’s so optimistic. And he’s like, oh my gosh, I never knew that, like, this is all, this is so normal. All these thoughts that I’m having, like, like everybody is angry and sad and mad, but just no one talks about it.
Like, and it was so sweet to hear him say like to his mom especially like, oh my gosh, I’m just having emotions. I’m just having emotions, right? And she’s this amazing woman. But still, again, if I think if parents aren’t in like a program like ours, most parents aren’t, don’t really know how to teach emotional regulation and processing from a young age. So even the best, best of parents are like, they just end up with these teenagers and especially these young men who are like society, media, whatever it may be, have told me that like just put on a happy face, right? So I think that’s, I’ve seen some really cool things being done with your guys’ documentary. There’s one organization, I forget the name, but they like have these little mask projects that they do do where it’s like the, the, the kids, especially the teenagers, they like put what’s on the front of your mask.
And I just pulled one that was like, on the front is like, I like make myself very calm. This is the front of the mask. Like I, I try not to be stressed out and I try not to like hate or get mad at anybody. And then on the the act, the back of the mask was actually like, I’m not calm at all. I like, just in order to calm myself inside like my head, I feel like I have to like do all these things. I feel very stressed very often. I don’t let people know when they are annoying me because there, and that there are people that I don’t really like, there’s like, there’s so much pent up energy on the back end of these masks. And so I just thought that was a, a cool story to tell because here’s just one young man who saw this film and was like, oh my gosh, I’m normal and like, there’s nothing wrong with me.
I just, I gotta learn. Which was all the work that I did with him when we had those private sessions was just, I just gotta learn that like what is actually mask, like, like the traditional presentation of masculinity is just like you said, a construct. Emotions are healthy, emotions are normal, all the things. So it was good stuff.
Terry:
Yeah. And I mean I, I know we’re just validating kind of what, what we’re the subject matter we’re talking about, but I mean even my like my own journey, you know, thinking about myself and that all of this was going on in the background. Like, so like many kids, like they’re not sitting there like conscious of like, oh, this is happening un until maybe they have this like type of epiphany like your student had. But you know, I can remember being, finding out very young, like when, when I did something, whether it was okay by the, the male crowd or not, I remember curling my hair at one point.
I had very straight hair and I wanted curly hair and finding out very quickly that that was not okay with most boys and that that was something that was going to be like, you are never gonna live this down type of thing. And then finding on the opposite end of the spectrum, you know, I, I was, you know, I was in a lot of sports and finding that I felt powerful and I was very praised when I would basically, it was like legal violence. I played ice hockey and lacrosse and stuff, you know, that I was really good at, you know, hurting people, putting people down, doing all those things. And I became very good at that. And so that became a comfortable space because that was okay and that was praised and you got cheered for that.
And yeah, that’s part of the sport. I’m not coming down on those, those sports, they’re, they’re wonderful, but thinking of, I, I didn’t realize, you know, some of the messages that I was getting from that and then into high school, there’s this, you know, this space that it’s like I felt most comfortable when I was liked and accepted, but also just had a little element of fear. You had to have just enough of an element of fear that people were scared to mess with you. And I wasn’t even like, I can’t even imagine what that’s like for someone who was like below average size or you know, wasn’t athletic or whatever. Like I, like I was worried about that. Like, so if I’m worried about that, I can’t even imagine what was in everybody else’s head too.
And that went on for a long time. I mean, it actually even like got even louder as time went on was like, you know, you gotta be ready for, you know, you gotta be ready to throw down. Like, and that’s part of your way of making it in this world.
Wendy:
It took you years to shake that took you years to shake it, I mean, through college. Like it would still, that was like, I, you know, such a part of your journey was like learning that, right? Like whether it be bar fights or, yeah.
Terry:
Then come to find out, I, I’m the little, I’m actually on the other end of this. I’m confident enough now that I’m like, I’m the kid who, who curled his hair cuz I liked, I liked the way Prince’s hair looked. Okay Prince, and I can say that now, you know, but back then you admit that and like, it’s like, oh my gosh, you’re this, you’re that. The other, you’re like, oh, okay, I better not ever talk about that ever again. So yes.
Caroline:
Yeah, man, you’re feminize and Terry, what you’re talking about is you’re talking about the fragility of masculinity, that it’s a social construct. It’s very fragile, so you constantly have to prove it. And how do we ask boys and men to prove it through violence and through sexual exploration, if you will, or the consumption consumption of others, right? The more, the better. I think it’s, it’s shocking for a lot of girls and women and, and folks who aren’t, you know, men who think about, to think about what it means to be held in the, the man box. You are constantly under threat. There’s a low level of threat from other men to keep you in the box. And the way you prove your manhood is through violence, sports, it’s through the enactment of violence or the threat of violence, right?
And so you’re constantly having to prove it because it’s not an actual thing. And the ways in which you’re asked to do that are really damaging. And that’s what you were talking about Wendy too, right? This boy who came forward and wow, that’s exactly what we wanna hear, right? Which is that the film exposes the fact that you’re suffering in silence and you think you’re the only one going through it. You think every other boy is in actual, you know, their, their mailing us is solid, but mine’s not. So I have to prove it. So you suffer in silence as a boy and then all of a sudden it’s revealed to you hopefully through, you know, this film or, or some other experience or, or an adult exposing it for what it is, which is a social construct and saying actually, your your, these feelings you’re feeling are coming from these messages.
Everybody is feeling this way and you can seek help and you can curl your hair. And you, you just giving boys, especially those in like sixth or seventh grade when they’re, you know, when it, it really becomes this intense man box pressure to stay in, especially during those years, just giving them permission to be a full human being and exposing it for the social construct that it is and talking about, you know, the damage that it does. Now with that said, I think it’s still really difficult to navigate masculinity. So even though even once you discover you are, you’ve been, you thought you were suffering in silence, but you’re actually experiencing what every boy does, it’s still really difficult because you’re still gonna get a lot of pressure to stay in the man box, right?
You just are. You’re gonna get a lot of pressure to perform your masculinity through violence with a threat of violence. And it, it’s hard to navigate, which means we need to shift our culture. So it’s yes, you put on armor by recognizing the what the man box is and the damage that it does. And, and parents can certainly help their boys do that, but there’s, they still have to go out into the world and it’s not, you know, just a low level threat of, of hypothetical violence. It’s actual violence, right? I mean, who, who gets beaten up? Who gets called a pussy, a sissy, a fag who, you know, the, the homophobic transphobia who, who faces violence feminized men or you know, men who are smaller in size or, or can’t prove their manhood through their body.
And I’ll just take it a step further. If you look at mass shootings, Dr. Jackson Katz, you know, 25 years ago, identified the fact that school shooters have the same profile, almost virtually all of them, they’re men, most of them are, are white men. They have a grieved entitlement, meaning that they believe they, they were raised to think they’re entitled to things and that, that the world has abandoned them and not given them what they’re entitled to. But what he finds is very specifically that these are boys, especially school shooters who do not fit the box of masculinity in their physical form. And so they enact incredible violence and they pick up weapons in order to perform masculinity in really violent and awful ways, and often in response to bullying.
And I know a lot of folks look at this and they say, look, let’s not, let’s not dismiss school sh you know, let, let’s not make excuses for school shooters. I’m not at all doing that, but I think it’s really important to understand the cultural phenomenon that create this. And that is the extreme of what we’re talking about. And we’re seeing this increasingly, and we’re seeing this because the pressure to be in the man box has been amplified through social media, the fact that content creators are constantly reaching our children in ways they simply couldn’t a decade ago.
Wendy:
Yeah. And video games and, and then, and then the constant messaging, it’s wild. And then, gosh, it’s like, I never even thought about how this is all interconnected with, you know, here we, we have a thousands of students that have gone through our programs, let’s just call it thousands of families. And you know, 95% of the time it’s, it’s the women that bring it on and bring it home. And, and then so many incredible men come on board later, right? Once they see like, okay, but, and there is a giant resistance, especially when it comes to switching out of like traditional punishment, fear, force, spanking, hurting, harming a child, intimidating humiliation, those type of like overpowering techniques to try to teach a child to be better and do better.
There’s a huge, there’s so much more of a resistance in the men than there is in the women and it makes so much sense, right? Like you’re, you’re normalizing that like, it’s like the weakness that like that’s a sign of weakness. Yeah. It’s a sign of weakness, it’s feminine, like all these things. So it just makes even more sense and it’s just, you know, helps me to remember how important it is to help change the narrative so young for young men. And one of my favorite things about the film Caroline is that it, like, so much is, so much is shown about like the bell curve of being a human being and on the very end of one, one side and the very end of other side is like, you know, the like extreme muscles and like someone who can lift a woman over her head.
And then on the other extreme side is like, you know, some like whatever, I forget exactly what it did, but, but in the middle, 97% of us are just the exactly the same thing. Yes, we have some, there’s different like biology and muscle mass and that kind of stuff, but for the most part we are all as humans like the same. And, but yet we take masculinity and we make it this very end of the bell, like the bell curve, and then we take femininity and that’s the definition. The the feminine is pink and she is, she’s soft and she’s long hair. And then the man is like these muscles and he kicks your ass if you fuck with him. Like, I’m like, oh my gosh. Like, but in the middle is just all the other normal, like just regular human beings.
And so that was so enlightening too to make sure we’re educating our kids that we’re all the same. Yes, there’s differences in like the male and female body, but at the same time we all have emotions, we all have challenges, we all need to learn peaceful, conflict resolution, anger is a healthy human emotion. It is how, where justice is born when you feel hurt, you do not have to hurt back in order to move through that emotion. Like, and there’s some things I’ll highlight here in a little bit about like how to be like, boys will be boys in a healthy way, but man, that was eye, that was an eye-opening part of the film.
Terry:
Yeah. I think that just goes down to like, one of the hardest things to do is just to love yourself. You know exactly where you’re at no matter the circumstances and you know, yeah. So it seems like, you know, there’s, there’s this draw and especially when you’re a kid, just to look at this one end of the spectrum or the other and and just think that that’s the ideal. If I, if I try hard enough, I can be that. And then finally somehow everybody will accept me and I’ll love myself.
Caroline:
Yeah. And it doesn’t work that way as you know. And, and of course media plays such a major role in this because if these, if these gender roles were natural, if they were actually based in nature, we wouldn’t need all of the cultural trimmings to, to enforce them, right? We wouldn’t actually need them to be constantly enforced by other humans, by institutions, by media images. And we know that when boys and girls are exposed and, and gender nonconforming youth are exposed to alternative types of media, they have profound shifts in how they view the world and how they view their place in the world. So viewing something like The Mask You Live in or going through the exercise that you had mentioned earlier, Wendy, the mask exercise, which Ashanti Branch who runs the Ever Forward Club.
Wendy:
Yes.
Caroline:
That exercise is really powerful because once you do that in a circle with other young men and you realize, oh wait, everybody is going through this. Everybody is putting on the mask and at, you know, at what point do we ask boys to put on that mask and become stoic and become in charge and in control and really hide their emotions? At what point do we ask boys to be in a position that is, it is patently fake, right? And, and to project that mask, one of the common phenomenon that that boys will talk about is dropping their voice prematurely, right? So they’ll wanna project masculinity and they have no idea what age their voice actually changed because they have already dropped their voice in order to appear more masculine and war in control.
And what are we doing that, that they are mass suffering in silence? Like what are we doing as a culture that they’re mass suffering in silence? And what can we do to shift that? They have some interesting data about, for example, a new study just came out from UCLA looking at princess culture, which, you know, I have some critiques of that from some other perspectives. But boys who watch princess films actually have much higher self-esteem and are, are less likely to adhere to rigid gender roles. So interesting. And it, and perhaps I would guess the mechanism there is maybe because they’re watching content that is aimed at girls. And one of the big things we do, you know, we tell boys they can’t cry, don’t throw like a girl, don’t show emotions.
We also tell them that girl things don’t matter, right? So if they’re watching princess culture or princess shows, they’re valuing something that is traditionally feminine. They’re valuing something that girls have been asked to value. And so there’s, you know, that there’s an action there that pushes against this kind of man box socialization.
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Wendy:
Oh, that’s so cool. I love it. Okay, I got a question for you. This was, this was one of my team members asked this and I thought it was, well she had, she had two things is like, you know, from your, I have like my parent educator standpoint and ideas, but when it comes to like us hearing that these boys have gotten these messages, right? Like, so I’m trying to think if like Terrin has ever told us about something or I don’t know, but anyways, when, when you find out that your, your little boy let’s say has gotten one of these messages, like, oh, the teacher told me today that I was like, you know, let’s cry a crybaby. Or you hear someone say that, like, what can we tell these children to like counterbalance that, right?
Like to, I always say to leave a new imprint on their minds from a very young age that, you know, that was just one person’s comment. Like, to not let it like be such a brand on them or to do some counter work on it. Do you have ideas for that, Caroline?
Caroline:
You know, I do Wendy, and what a great question, right? Because we encounter this a lot and I think the backdrop or the context here is we, we impart rigid gender roles on boys and girls. I think a lot of parents do because they feel that they’re protecting them, right? So I don’t wanna send my my son to school with nail polish on because I know he’s gonna be teased and so I’m going to police him at home in order to protect him later on. So first I think that’s a fallacy. I think that that children do a lot of bullying and teasing and they’re gonna pick up on whatever characteristic or weakness they see, whether that’s gender based or not. So I, I think it’s a fallacy to think that we can protect our children. I think that’s a broader conversation about why it is that children feel the need to do that and and bully each other, which, you know, there’s plenty of research on that.
But the idea that somehow you’re gonna gender police them outta bullying it, it doesn’t work that way. So when I was raising my nephew, I encountered this situation a lot. And for example, he wanted to do a knitting after school program. He wanted to learn how to knit, and he was the only boy in the class. And when I went on a field trip with his knitting teacher, who was also his homeroom teacher, she said, yeah, you know, my, my husband was really worried about him taking a knitting class. She was worried it would turn him into a girl. And my response was, oh no, that’s fine. If he becomes a girl, it’s fine if it turns him into a girl to express the absurdity of that statement, right?
Wendy:
Right.
Caroline:
But also to reject the devaluation of a feminine. And with my nephew, I really consistently use humor and, and it’s, it’s tough to, to use humor to kind of take apart what an adult in their life is told them and still expect them to respect that adult. And so I think it’s a fine line, right? I don’t want him to disrespect his teacher, but I use humor and, and talk about, oh, you know, your teacher is, she’s really stuck in quite old ideas about gender. Can you imagine like knitting, turning you into a girl? And what if you do turn into a girl? Oh no, is that the end of the world? No, it’s not. That would be fine. You know, just to using humor to expose the absurdity and giving him tools so that he sees that that adults in his life, you know, don’t necessarily know what they’re talking about.
So he was raised to feel really empowered and you know, so we, he would go to reading night and they would say, boys will be boys. And he would say, exactly, boys will be boys. We will, you know, we’ll be caretakers, we’ll be, so he would start challenging some of these, these norms and doing it in a playful, fun way. But, you know, something that really cuts at the core and exposes, you know, the, the foundational myths.
Wendy:
Oh, that’s so awesome. Yeah.
Terry:
No, and that’s, yeah, that’s great. And I think if you, I mean, it probably all depends on the dynamic that you have going on at home. So if like, if, if it’s the, the, the mom in this case like trying to, you know, react to whatever’s going on, I think that’s, that’s awesome. But hopefully you have a dad at home too. That’s, you know, is not seeing the, you know, the, the validity in, in that, that statement or anything like that. I’m saying. I know. Yeah. Hopefully. So that’s why I’m putting that out there. Cause I mean, I’m thinking about myself, I’m like, I, I want, I want my son to see that. Like, I can cry and I can go and exert a lot of energy in a sports environment and be intense and laugh and cry and be goofy and make fun of myself and, you know, so I’m trying to, to do that from my, my angle, but I know that that’s not the, the same for a lot of people out there.
So I, I have to imagine that that is a challenge. I mean, that is like, you know, you’re, you’re not, you’re trying not to, like you said, offend the teacher, but you’re also trying not to like rock the boat with the spouse too. And also like, have some sort of like, not just rub off on, you know, the, the child’s perspective, but hopefully chip away at the, the, the dad’s perspective too, you know?
Wendy:
Yeah. It’ll, it’d be great to almost have like a statement of like, wow, it’s amazing what research is, is showing us these days about gender, like social constructs or it’s, it’s amazing how much I’m learning lately, and this is just an example of someone who probably isn’t in doing the same type of learning. So that’s why some people say things like that, but it doesn’t mean it’s true things like that. But that actually leads me to my next question is like, what is your thought pattern, Caroline, or encouragement for, obviously 93% of our listener bases women, seven, 7% are women. We, our, our 7% are men. And thanks to Terry and your incredible work, we’re really always praying we get into more and more men’s ears, incredible father’s ears, but like for these young, this next generation of young men, right?
Like obviously they have a lot of women in their ears, but like, what is your, is it just as influential to have the women teaching them this? Like, our our hope is that more and more men are teaching like the way Terry really does teach his children, but like, maybe is there encouragement that even, like, I remember Mr. Rogers’ quote of like, you just need one person in your life. Want just one person will make a difference. So is it the, do you find that it’s kind of similar in this work? I mean, obviously perfect world scenario, we need mom and dads to watch this film and dads to be like, heck yeah, I’m gonna do my part to help break this bullshit systemic reality of our world.
But if it’s just the mom, maybe something to empower her a little bit that the work she’s doing is important.
Caroline:
Well, mothers are the folks who have probably the best am most sustained access. I’m gonna be a little pessimistic and point out that one of the components of traditional masculinity is that men actually don’t really listen to women, boys don’t really listen to women about gender. Men get to be the great validators. In fact, they get to be the great validators of, you know, women’s value and who’s, who’s ha who matters in terms of, you know, sex objects and that sort of thing. So men determine women’s worth in our society. We give them that power. And men also determine men’s worth, right? So while men are engaging with women, they’re being validated by other men. And that’s where they’re, that’s who they’re listening to about this.
And boys learn this way early on, they learn the, the validity of their masculinity is not gonna be determined by their mother. And I am positive that the listener base, the, the women who are listening now know what I’m talking about. Even if you don’t have the language or haven’t thought about it in this way, all of this to say it doesn’t mean we can’t chip away and make inroads and try to increase empathy and social emotional learning and I, and do this in overt and covert ways. I think we can, especially given the sustained engagement that we typically have with our boys. But if we want a broad cultural shift, it’s going to have to involve men, which is great because it should involve men. But if we want the culture to shift away from harmful, damaging traditional notions of masculinity, then it’s actually gonna take men telling voice that this is the way forward.
It’s gonna take coaches, it’s gonna take fathers. And thankfully we’re seeing a lot more men getting involved in this. We’re seeing a lot of coaches getting involved in this. I think a lot of it, you know, has to do with personal experiences. And Terry, you had talked about this like even one generation up, right? That parenting styles and in masculinity, even though it’s still kind of mired in, in some of these traditional elements, has radically shifted. A lot of men have, you know, father wounds, fathers who are not loving and caring and, and didn’t show emotions and didn’t even maybe engage much in their son’s life because of that pressure to be a breadwinner over all else. We have less of that with the generation who is raising boys now.
We just have a long way to go. But it has to involve boys and men really, fathers and coaches and other male leaders taking that lead.
Wendy:
Oh, so good. What a, what a beautiful invitation to end with that women, if you are listening right now, please invite your spouses to listen to this. Get them a pair of AirPods for Christmas. I swear these apple AirPods are the best invention on the planet. They can listen while they’re mowing the lawn. You can stream this. No, see, there I am. Social construct.
Terry:
Yeah, there you go.
Wendy:
What the heck, you guys, I’ve been infiltrated. Why are they, okay, let me rephrase that. They can listen to this episode and also even push play and stream the Mask You Live in, why they are doing the dishes, why they’re folding laundry, why they’re rocking the baby to sleep, whatever it may be. But let’s just invite all the men that we know in our lives to listen to this. And also to watch The Mask You Live in. We’ll make sure that we put the link, but it, I think I saw on the website it’s $3.99 to stream, but I just thought I’d, I’d end with this. This was actually written by an account on Instagram called Seed and Sew it was labeled “Boys Will Be Boys.” Boys will be boys who take deep breaths when they’re angry rather than hurting someone.
Boys will be boys when they cry on their best friend’s shoulder, when they’re sad. Boys will be boys when they acknowledge their privilege and advocate for others. Boys will be boys when they ask their partner for consent and know a yes is a yes for right now, not a lifetime guarantee. Boys will be boys when they identify their emotions and ask for support, processing them when they need help. Boys will be boys when they empathize with others and ask how they can best support them. And lastly, boys will be boys when they see vulnerability as a strength. Let’s flip the narrative. So
Caroline:
I love that, Wendy, that’s amazing. Yes,
Wendy:
So good. Like I said, I didn’t write it but Seed and Sew wrote it, so let’s go check out their work. I know they have a really cool account and are doing some cool work in the world, but oh my gosh. Caroline, thank you for being here. Thank you for taking time outta your busy schedule to just encourage and empower and motivate and inspire us all. Thank you for the important wor work that you’re doing in the world. Let’s end by just letting listeners know one more time where they can find you. We’ll make sure we put all the links in the show notes page, but where can they go learn more and take next steps?
Caroline:
You know, go to our website, the Representation Project. We have plenty of resources if folks wanna reach out individually. If you need something in terms of, of support situation, you’re going through something with your son, something you’re going through with masculinity, we would be absolutely delighted to be supportive and helpful in that way. And Wendy and Terry, your work is incredible. I mean, you’re reaching this audience and you’re doing it in such a, a thoughtful and empathetic way. Just really wanna acknowledge. It’s wonderful to be in this space with some kindred spirits.
Wendy:
Thank you. That that means a lot. Yeah. All right, listeners, thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.
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Stella:
For more information, go to freshstartfamilyonline.com. Thanks for listening, families, have a great day.
