Parenting a strong-willed child can feel intense, exhausting, and isolating, especially when your kid has big emotions, strong opinions, and a “justice-seeking” spirit that won’t quit. In this episode of The Fresh Start Family Show, Wendy sits down with parenting coach and author Mary Van Geffen to talk about how to parent a “spicy one”, without losing your mind, your confidence, or their spark.

You’ll learn how to set firm and kind boundaries, why repair matters more than perfection, and how simple shifts in your tone of voice, pace, and posture can change everything when your child pushes back. Mary also shares powerful mindset shifts from her new book Parenting a Spicy One, including the idea that your child isn’t your problem, they’re your curriculum.

If you’re raising a strong-willed or “spicy” kid and you want more cooperation, less yelling, and a home that feels safer and more connected, this episode will feel like a deep exhale.

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Episode Highlights:

• Strong-willed kids aren’t problems to fix, they’re leaders in the making who need steady, confident guidance.
• Repair matters more than perfection, and learning to come back together changes the entire culture of your home.
• Your tone, pace, and posture shape how safe your leadership feels in hard moments.
• Growth happens in stages, and frustration is often a sign that real learning is underway.
• When we stop tying behavior to worth, we raise kids who feel deeply loved and secure.
• Calm, firm leadership creates cooperation far more effectively than control or intensity.
• Thriving for a “spicy” kid doesn’t mean shrinking their fire, it means helping them channel it with wisdom and strength.

Resources Mentioned:

Find Mary on Instagram

Grab a copy of Mary’s book Parenting a Spicy One: A Compassionate Guide for Raising a Deep-Feeling and Wonderfully Strong-Willed Kid

Check out Mary’s website

Mary’s episode Ep. 138. How to Set Boundaries with Spicy Kids  / Ep. 237 (re-release) on The Fresh Start Family Show

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Unable to listen or prefer to read along? Here’s the transcript!

Wendy Snyder: Well hey there, families, and welcome to a new episode of The Fresh Start Family Show. I’m so happy you’re here. I’m Wendy, your host, a positive parenting educator and family life coach, and I’m thrilled to have my friend Mary Van Geffen with us today. Welcome to the show, Mary.

Mary: I’m so glad to be here. I always get energized by conversations with you.

Wendy Snyder: I’m so happy to have you here for the second time. Mary, you were on our show a long time ago, and we’ve actually re-aired your original episode a few times because it’s a fan favorite. Back then you came on to talk about how to set boundaries with spicy ones. Today we’re talking about parenting a spicy one, how to raise strong-willed kids without losing your mind or your spark, and we’re highlighting your new book, Parenting a Spicy One. This is so exciting. Congratulations, Mary.

Mary: Thank you. As a fellow ADHDer, coming all the way to the end of a book is a big deal, because what I’m passionate about is constantly shifting and changing. But I’ve had this hyperfocus of wanting no child to grow up feeling broken or wrong, and no mom to feel like she was wrong and broken for so long. So it’s a beautiful thing to have it all in one place now, all my thoughts and techniques.

Someone called it a memoir because about 25% of it is my journey. And I think your book will be similar in that way. I went through this. I didn’t naturally know how to be calm and kind. I was pretty firm, but I had to learn it. And honestly, I don’t want advice from somebody who just does it naturally, because they can’t explain the steps.

Wendy Snyder: Yes. It’s so true, to really have been in the fire.

And I love how you start this book with a story that is so riveting and real, from your journal, when your little girl was about four. Just to give listeners a quick update on where you are now, your little ones are big ones now. They’re both in college, right?

Mary: Yes. The mild child is 19, and the spicy one is 21.

Wendy Snyder: Okay. So you start off this book, and I have a similar story in the beginning of mine, of literally being in the fire where you’re like, “Holy crap, what am I doing wrong? What is wrong with this kid? What is happening?” You’re in the backyard at a family gathering trying to get her to listen in the middle of a tantrum. And I love how you start with such authenticity and honesty, sharing the words you said and the feelings you had, that really echo the idea of, “I don’t even think I like this kid.”

And then what we feel so many times raising these beautiful, strong-willed spicy ones: “What’s wrong with me? What’s wrong with this kid? Something’s got to be wrong here, right?”

It’s such a powerful opening. So I’m glad you saved that story or remembered it, because it pulls readers in. People raising a spicy one, they know. And it’s such a beautiful thing to feel seen in the pit, when you’re not able to see your child as beautiful yet.

Mary: Yes. I have a picture of that Thanksgiving before the meltdown. It always reminds me… we each have a part in it. We’re not going to avoid some of these big feelings and moments, because this is an intense, persistent, highly emotional, justice-seeking individual. But I have so much compassion for that version of me and that version of her.

Wendy Snyder: Yes. It’s been 18 years now… how beautiful.

Before we get into today’s subject matter, I’d love for you to speak to what it feels like to be there, what I call the “mountaintop.” It’s complicated, right? It’s sad because the kids are getting older. I’ve seen you share about the heartbreak of empty nesting and college and how hard it can be.

But it’s also the coolest place to sit and look at the investment you made into your family and your children, and now to have the relationships you want with them. We all know it’s not perfect, there’s no arrival of perfection, but maybe speak to this: what does it feel like now, 18 years later, to have learned what you’ve learned, and to be where you are with your kids, your family, and yourself?

Because we all know, and I love how you talk about this, spicy ones will set you on a spiritual journey. It’s not just the relationship you’re forming with them, it’s also the relationship with yourself. There’s so much healing when you commit to learning how to see this beautiful wild child, this cactus kid, as beauty. So what does that feel like these days?

Mary: Thank you for pointing out that it’s a little weathered with the empty nest feelings. It feels like living in compassion. First, I’m just so thankful they want to spend time with me, and they constantly want to bring their friends around.

Christmas was this golden moment of everybody working to make breakfast. And some of that is just their age now. It doesn’t have to be mom serving everybody, it’s collaborative.

But mostly I’m thankful we have a compassionate relationship where I can mess up, because I still mess up. I’m not perfect, and they are certainly not perfect, and we can repair. It’s not like how maybe you and I were raised, where nobody talks about it again, and you’re left thinking, “Am I crazy, or did my mom just go off on me and it felt like she completely rejected me?” I have those glimpses in my past that we never talked about.

I love that in my family now there’s no unspoken or unspeakable thing. Everything is out in the open.

Just a week ago she was home and I messed up again. I’m a spicy one, and spicy ones sometimes like power, having an impact on someone. Sometimes we use that for bad.

She and I were hanging out at the end of the night, you know when they come into your room and they’re on your floor. She’d been laying in my bed with her feet up on the wall, and we were playing with the dog. You’ve met Wally.

Wally had this hard rock of gunk in his eye, and I went to swipe it out. And I looked at her, because I know how much she hates bodily fluids and anything considered gross. And something awoke in me that I’m not proud of, that spicy one who wants a sensory reaction. I swiped it, held it out for the dog, and he ate it.

She went explosive, screamed, “How could you do that?” And I had this frozen smile on my face. In the end she left, and of course her words were so articulate because they’re the same words I’ve been using her whole life. She was like, “I want to feel like this is a safe place, and I don’t like that,” and she walked out.

But what’s gorgeous is I sat in my shame for a moment, like, “Why do I do that? Why do I disrupt the peace trying to rile her up?” It’s not like that with anyone else. It’s a mother-daughter thing.

And then I went in and I said, “Hey, I hate that I did that. You deserve to feel safe. I know that’s a hot button for you, and I shouldn’t have done it.” And she said, “Okay, Mommy, I forgive you.” And we moved on.

It’ll keep happening. I’m going to do dumb things and she’s going to do dumb things. But it’s this beautiful feeling that there isn’t this sad background noise we never discuss, this leftover hurt. It’s all out in the open. It’s nice.

Wendy Snyder: Yes. I love that so much.

And I relate. Fifteen years into this, my son was born into this work. By the time he came along, I’d done some of my first classes and I knew what I wanted to do. When I had Stella, I had no idea. I was just doing hand-me-down parenting tactics, thinking, “That’s what you do.” And then at three, it was a full 180.

But last Saturday, I lost my mind on my son. And I was like, “Damn… that hasn’t happened in a long time.” It happens much less now, and of course I give myself grace. We never want to defend or blame.

I was literally on the phone getting frauded. Public service announcement, listeners, the bank will never call you. Ever. I did not get that memo.

They called from what looked like the bank number. They were like, “Someone’s trying to use your card in New York, is this you?” Forty minutes of me thinking the bank was helping me, and it was fraud the whole time. Seven hours later I’d opened new accounts. It was a thing.

Mid-call, he left muffin wrappers on the couch. I muted the phone and I screamed at him. I cursed. And afterwards I was like, “Okay… that was a mistake.”

Then compassion, because I knew I was triggered, feeling taken advantage of, feeling hurt. And later I repaired. I told him, “You didn’t deserve that. That’s all me.” Yes, we need to talk about cleaning up so the lab doesn’t eat it and throw up later, but you don’t deserve intimidation. I’m still learning how to respond instead of react.

So I love what you said. It’s not this land of perfection, it’s a land of safety. We can be human, make mistakes, learn, repair, and recover faster than we could before we learned this work.

Mary: Yeah. In my book I talk about four stages of learning. You start unconsciously incompetent, you scream and you’re like, “Yeah, they need to move their stuff,” and there’s hurt left over and another callous forms in the trust.

Then you get to conscious incompetence. That’s so painful because you can see it. You can see you can’t keep it together and you don’t want to be that person.

Then you take a class like Wendy’s, or join her membership, or read my book, and you become consciously competent. It’s hard work, but you do great if everything goes according to plan. If you pause, if you breathe, if you remember the tools, you can do it, but it takes effort.

And then slowly, like any skill, it becomes unconsciously competent. That’s the mountaintop you’re talking about. You pause without thinking so hard.

My daughter called the other day, both kids called at the same time from college, and I had them on FaceTime. I noticed my daughter was kind of picking at us, making jokes, and I really wanted to hear about my son’s classes.

If I wasn’t unconsciously competent I might’ve snapped, like, “Can you be quiet for a second?” But instead I paused and chose my response and said calmly, “Hey, time out. I really want to hear what he has to say.” That’s the difference, I can do it without bringing the hurt.

Wendy Snyder: Yes. We live parallel lives. I love that framework.

Two nights ago, I wanted my husband to speak first at dinner because he had an important interview. Stella was whirlwinding about this friend drama, spring break, everybody wanting to go to Cabo, she wants Europe. I felt myself heating up. That’s my consciously competent moment, where I’m like, “Bless you,” and I can feel it happening.

Then it’s like walking myself off the ledge: “You’ve got this. Signal safety. Shoulders back. Pause.” And then I was able to get to, “Okay, awesome, now pause so we can hear Dad.” So good.

Mary: In my book I quote Emily Freeman who says, “We can sit down on the inside.” I love that idea. You can feel that clenching, like, “I’m not being listened to, I’m not getting what I want,” and you can sit down on the inside and still get what you need.

Wendy Snyder: That is so good.

Okay, I want to read a short passage from your book and have you riff on it. You say:

“To look at parenting through a spiritual lens, you must try on the idea that your child is not your challenge, they are your curriculum. This book is their syllabus… Your spicy one is an invitation to grow your ability to love your child, and surprisingly yourself, unconditionally… The universe has gifted you with a child who will not participate in the toxic definition of love as something that must be earned.”

I love your words so much. Listeners, this book is so good.

Will you riff on that idea for a minute? I call these kids angels, because what looks like a pain in the butt can become this blessing that transforms an entire family legacy, if you accept the invitation. And a lot of it comes down to learning to love yourself, because the apple doesn’t fall far, and we’re often hardest on the people most like us.

Mary: Yeah. I think there’s a real grief process in realizing you have a spicy one.

We have this expectation, based on how motherhood is shown on screens, that you say, “Come on kids, let’s go,” and everybody wants to do what Mom wants to do.

But with a spicy one, everything can feel like a fight. It’s an immediate no. So there’s real suffering.

And anytime someone is suffering, if you can connect to meaning, “What could be the gift? What could be the learning?” you feel more empowered.

There’s a writer on leadership I quote, and he talks about four areas you can potentially control: the space inside yourself, the space between you and the spicy one, the space between you and God, and then the space inside the spicy one. And that’s the one we have no control over.

There’s nothing I can do to make this grumbling George Costanza of a child feel content about a family vacation. So if I can let go of that, I can stop believing old math like, “A good mom has kids who are grateful for the vacation.” That’s not true. A good mom can have a wildly defiant and discontent child.

Another old math is, “If you act right, you get treated with love. If you act wrong, you get rejected, punished, shamed.” That doesn’t work with strong-willed kids. Research shows you either push it underground and you get huge therapy bills and maybe estrangement, or you get nonstop power struggles.

Spicy ones are often the ones who will choose estrangement when they finally have control, because they want agency so much.

So instead of “if you act right, you get treated with love,” it becomes: everyone is treated with unconditional love, and I will have an inherent positive feeling about you regardless of your behavior.

Sometimes parents think, “When they behave, I can be positive toward them.” But it has to start with you being positive, finding what’s already beautiful, marinating in it, and building connection. That’s the energy that gives you influence.

Wendy Snyder: Yes. I love that.

I also think we learn so much through the people and situations that challenge us the most. There’s that book The Little Soul and the Sun, where the little soul wants to learn patience, and God is like, “You can’t learn patience unless someone tests you.” That’s what these kids do, they give you opportunities to heal and evolve.

Mary: And because their feelings are contagious, we have to learn the skill of being okay when they are not okay, because often they are not okay.

That carries into other relationships too. If my husband has a headache, I can spiral into, “Is he mad at me?” and I’m not okay because he’s not okay.

There’s power in grounding yourself and allowing someone else the dignity of their process while you remain okay.

Sometimes it’s physical. I tell clients to pretend to zip up a bubble. Hands down at your groin, zip it up over your head. This is your environment, everything outside it is somebody else’s. Your kid can be dissatisfied, whining, crying, and you can still be okay.

And if you’re highly sensitive and the noise is too much, get earplugs. It’s a lot.

Wendy Snyder: “Audio terrorism” is the best term I’ve ever heard.

Okay, I want to talk about a part of your book where you talk about tones of voice. I love playing with this in my community, and I want to hear your expertise. You went to Groundlings, which is so cool, and it shows.

You talk about how when we need to be firm, coming in hot with shame, disgust, judgment, power-over tone, raising your voice, yelling, shaming… it just doesn’t go well. It’s the stop sign. But you teach this concept of using a lower register, speaking from the belly, slowing down, confident posture.

Will you speak to that for a minute?

Mary: Yes. Posture is a huge communicator to that mammal child who is reading cues, “Is this a predator or prey?” Especially when they’re upset.

We’ve got high, medium, low sounds. If I’m talking like this, higher and fast, sometimes it can feel like I’m the same as them, and sometimes we’re not here to negotiate.

So we go deeper, we speak from our belly, we speak slower. The higher and faster you talk, the less the spicy one will respect you, or feel safe that you have leadership.

Leaders don’t move fast. They don’t go, “Okay, okay, can we just get to the car?” They slow it down, get physically present. Proximity matters.

Also, are you asking a question or giving a command? If you say, “Okay, can you get in the car, okay?” the spicy one is like, “Oh, that’s a question. Answer is no.”

Now, with some kids who have demand-avoidant tendencies, we might use a more declarative approach. Like, “That door needs to stay closed,” can land differently than “Go close the door.”

There’s no morally superior grammar, but you’ll get more cooperation when you pay attention to cadence, speed, tone, and whether you’re telling or asking.

A lot of us didn’t learn this, because all we got was screaming. So we put on this fake “nice kid voice” because it feels kinder than what we grew up with.

Find a mentor in a movie or show. Pretend to be them. For a while I pretended to be Glinda the Good Witch, because my mom’s limit-setting tone was dripping with disdain. My natural would be, “Don’t do that, I told you not to,” and I had to practice a new nervous system.

So I became this English fairy godmother until I could learn how to correct without being mad.

It’s okay not to know how to do this. Pick a mentor. Maybe it’s Wendy. Pretend to be Wendy when you set the limit.

Wendy Snyder: That is so good. I love that idea.

And yes, questions can be powerful when it’s about empowerment. “What’s your plan?” “How do you think we can fix this?” “How can we work together so we both win?” But in a firm moment, that question tone can accidentally hand over the steering wheel.

I also love that this is a “quick win” tool. Shoulders back, posture, tone of voice. It’s easier to practice those things than some of the deeper healing, and it can help you “fake it till you make it” while your nervous system catches up.

Mary: Totally. It’s a quick way of faking it till you make it. If you don’t believe you’re cut out to lead this kid, and you’re stuck in fear of failing, it helps to let your body lead you into a new habit.

Wendy Snyder: As we wrap, you have this beautiful prayer at the end of the book. Would you read it?

Mary: Sure. I’d love to. Nobody ever asks me to read anything.

Prayer for moms of spicy ones.

“Lord, I confess I am tired and angry, at myself, at this larger-than-life child, and maybe at you. Why didn’t you give me one of the easy ones? The kids who pine to wear matching outfits, the ones who dutifully ask for permission to cross the road. The mild children who can run more than one errand without a tantrum.

Forgive me, Lord, for my eye rolls, my heavy sighs, and the unconditional love that I sometimes direct at this sparkly human. Give me grace where I feel contempt. Give me mercy for the meltdowns. Burn away my fear for their future.

Remind me today that difficult children can make the most brilliant adults. But most of all, give me deep delight in this storm of a child. Let me love them like you do, God, extravagantly, recklessly, and unreasonably. Open my eyes to the precious ways my spicy one bears your image and echoes your creativity, love, and power. Amen.”

Wendy Snyder: Amen, amen, amen. So beautiful.

Before you tell everyone where to find you and the book, would you share a little about how your spicy one is thriving now? She’s in college, right?

Mary: Yes. She just got back from a semester abroad in Barcelona with five of her best friends. Now she’s moved into a house with those same girls and a few others. She does really well socially.

She was the first to get a job in high school, actually, freshman year, before anyone else. She’s a powerhouse. She got herself an internship at The RealReal last year, paid, and she’s just kicking butt. She’s doing it her own way and I’m so proud of her.

And she’s still fiery and capable of great disrespect, and that’s okay. I’m just happy to be along for her ride.

We’re having a book blessing, and she’s coming back for it. She wants to give a blessing over the book. Pretty neat.

Wendy Snyder: I’m so happy for you. I love you. Your work has been so important to me.

I really believe this book will be a bestseller. So many people are going to feel less alone. It’s going to give permission to be real about the grief and hardship, but also the delight and the gift of raising these kids into adulthood where they thrive.

Thank you for being here. Tell everyone where they can find you and get the book.

Mary: If you look up parentingaspicyone.com or Mary Van Geffen, it’s there. It comes out February 10th, and it’s available wherever books are sold. I just found out it’s available on Amazon UK right now too.

Wendy Snyder: Amazing. And drop your Instagram, because you’re the IG queen.

Mary: Yeah, I’m still doing it. Mary Van Geffen, like “driving van,” is my handle. I’m trying to limit my social media usage more and more, but I am posting support on there every day.

Wendy Snyder: Your Instagram is amazing. Thank you again, Mary. Listeners, go get all things Mary Van Geffen.

Mary: Or else.

Wendy Snyder: Or else.

Mary: Thank you, Wendy.