This episode of The Fresh Start Family Show is all about the whys behind the traumas we faced – big or small – how we learned to adapt to survive, and why it’s so important that we spend time getting the help and healing we need to put those traumas to rest and be whole.
Terry and Wendy’s guest this week is Travis Goodman of Therapy4Dads. He is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and host of the Therapy4Dads podcast where he helps men heal from their past so they can be more emotionally available in their present day lives as fathers.
In order to help the men in our lives be open to healing from a lifetime of cultural conditioning and traumas, it’s so important that we offer curiosity, patience, & empathy.
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Episode Highlights;
- Most men don’t even realize they have experienced trauma
- There are different types of trauma. More common is “little t” trauma which is relational trauma / what we did NOT receive growing up (little/no affection, invalidated feelings, unsafe environment etc)
- Anxiety, depression and even PTSD can all stem from emotional triggers and not being able to handle emotions that come up that we don’t know how to & weren’t allowed to experience
- When we go first with making change and being open to healing and growth, we open the door safely for the men in our lives to do so too
- When certain feelings weren’t allowed growing up, coping mechanisms were developed
- With trauma, men often point inward that they’re the problem (I’m not enough, I have to prove myself), and healing can lead to an identity that they ARE enough leading them to feel safe to be vulnerable
Resources Mentioned:
Where to find Travis:
Travis’s Youtube Channel
Travis’s IG Post on Healing from Trauma
Not able to listen or want to read along with us?
Here is the episode transcript!
Wendy:
Hello listeners and welcome to a new episode. I’m your host, Wendy Snyder positive parenting educator and family life coach. And today we have Terry co-hosting with me, which is always such a treat. And we had the honor of interviewing Travis Goodman from Therapy for Dads. And he came on to talk to us about Four Reasons to Heal Your Trauma. And let me tell you, you guys, this was one of my favorite episodes that we have ever recorded here at the Fresh Start Family Show. And I’m so excited to bring it to you because I know it’s gonna be great for all the mamas out there, which is – data shows 93% of you, of our listenership is, is moms.
And also for all the dads Happy Father’s Day, by the way, to all the dads out there who listen to our show and who are so supportive and willing and excited about doing the work that we teach here at Fresh Start Family in your homes. Thank you. And we just honor you and see you and admire you so much. But it’s gonna be a great episode for them too. So happy Father’s Day to you guys. Mamas, if you are listening, please get this episode in your husband’s hands or your partner if you’re co parenting with someone or your ex, whoever it may be, this is a really great episode to text them and just let ’em know like, Hey, this is a good one. You’re gonna wanna listen or make time on your commute home or when you’re mowing the lawn this weekend, like, I really think so many men are gonna be really blessed by this episode.
And mama’s, let me tell you, Travis is so incredible at explaining trauma and how we can heal from it that, you know, it’s not, this is not just a conversation for dads. And so I’m just so excited for you guys to enjoy this episode. But let me tell you just a little bit about Travis before we get going. So Travis is a licensed marriage and family therapist. He has been practicing over the past nine years in both a hospital and private practice setting. He has further expertise, training and certification in attachment focused EMDR, emotionally focused couples therapy and dialectical behavioral therapy through the video podcast therapy for Dads, which is available on Apple Podcast, Spotify and YouTube, Travis invites listeners to hear and share in dad stories from different age, cultural, ethnic, and race backgrounds.
He wants men and fathers to have a voice and a platform to share, hear, be vulnerable, laugh, and learn from each other in a world where fathers are sometimes not given such a space. This podcast is driven to be an intersection of fatherhood and mental and emotional health. And let me just tell you, I love Travis. We just hit it off. I know we ended this episode and Terry And I just looked at each other and we were like, dang, that was so good. And then Terry and Travis hit it off. They ended up scheduling an an episode where Terry’s gonna be on Travis’s show. And we’re actually gonna come on Travis’s show as a couple in a different episode and talk about just the long term beautiful results of positive parenting.
And so this was just really fun to kick off this friendship. I really respect Travis. I think he’s such an incredible person doing such wonderful work in the world, And. I’m just really excited for you guys to get to know him and enjoy this conversation. So as always, you guys, if you love why you’re listening to this episode, please take a screenshot and share on social. I’m @FreshStartWendy. I always love to connect with you guys over there when you’re listening to a podcast and it really resonates and helps you. Please make sure you tag me so we can connect in dms. And then also this is, like I said, a great one to text a friend and just say, Hey, I was listening to this episode, grab the link and shoot it over to them and just say, this is a really good one.
You may enjoy this or you may enjoy sharing with your partner or your spouse, your husband. And we are just so thankful when you share our show. And then lastly, if you really love our show and you haven’t given a review yet over on iTunes, please know how grateful we would be for that. Reviews over on iTunes are really a big deal. They help our podcast get seen in the iTunes world. When we are seen in the iTunes world. The algorithm in the podcasting world helps kind of get in front of more and more families all over the world who really could use encouragement and support and inspiration. So thank you in advance for leaving a quick, even if it’s a two three minute review just to document how much you love our show.
Just know that we appreciate it so, so much and it really helps us out. So without further ado, you guys enjoy this episode and let’s do this.
Stella:
Well, hey there, I’m Stella Welcome to my mom and dad’s podcast, the Fresh Start Family Show. We’re so happy you’re here. We’re inspired by the ocean, Jesus, and rock and roll. and believe deeply in the true power of love and kindness. Together. we hope to inspire you to expand your heart, learn new tools, and strengthen your family. Enjoy the show.
Wendy:
Well. hey there, families and welcome to a new episode of the Fresh Start Family Show. Terry and I are really excited to have Travis Goodman from Therapy for Dads with us today. Welcome to the show, Travis, come.
Travis:
Yeah, thanks guys. Well I’m glad to be here. It’s been a long, it’s been a long time coming. Those that don’t know and it’s, it’s been this buildup. So a lot of buildup, a lot of excitement over past year or so. So finally being here is like, yes, finally get to actually talk to you guys cause we’ve been going back and forth. And I actually sitting down is, I’m really excited to, to have the conversation today.
Wendy:
Families, we’re gonna, we’re gonna be talking today about Four Reasons Why you Wanna heal from your Trauma. And we’re gonna get into trauma. It’s gonna be amazing. But just to riff a little bit more on this, I wanna speak to it actually, Travis, because I, I was laughing because literally it’s been a year right? Since we first touched base. I don’t know, I, it might have been through my friend Chrissy Powers. I forget how we met.
Travis:
Yeah, it was through Chrissy. Yeah. I think somehow sharing a post or something and then somehow found you and Yeah, it’s, yeah, who knows. The algorithm made away.
Wendy:
I know, right? Yeah. And I just loved what you were doing and just wanted to connect. So we connected and we, we scheduled something and then just one thing after another, right? Like Terry had a photo shoot so he couldn’t be here. And then you had a kiddo that got sick and you guys got sick. And then it was like another time we needed to push it. And I mean it probably was like five or six pushes, right? And, I was laughing cuz I’m like, I feel like, you know, you’ve done a lot of work when you can reschedule like a million times and you’re like, cool, no problem. Like even if I was like so much grace with each other, like compassion, like not triggered at all by like, we were just like, cool. So that’s one thing that I love. I’m like okay, you know, you are either a therapist or a life coach or just done a lot of work if you’re just calm through five reschedules.
And then second, when we first actually got scheduled, I loved it because it was actually kind of hard to get scheduled with you because you were like, I only record at like 5:30 AM and 8:00 PM because we have three kids. I think you had just had your third at the time or something and you’re like, I just really ams. I’m like really passionate. I’m not, you say passionate, you said I’m really firm about being there for my family in the morning and the evening. Like it’s the hardest times, which we all know it is right when you have littles.
Travis:
Yeah.
Wendy:
And you were just so beautifully unwilling to budge at that time in your life so you could support your wife. And I was like, oh dude, now I really love this guy.
Travis:
Yeah, they, I appreciate that. It’s something that, yeah, I was really, I still feel passionate about that. I didn’t want to cause more strain or stress than it already is with littles. It just that, you know, without sleeping and all those things, it just, it all adds up. And so, you know, now I’m finding a rhythm and, and, and finding a little more space that they’re, you know, getting a little older. They’re still little, I mean six, five and 14 months, but six, four and 14 months. Yeah. So it’s, it’s shifting a bit. They’re still little and require a lot. Absolutely. But my, I have a little more wiggle room now. Things are, there’s, there’s a, there’s a rhythm, there’s a pattern and, and it’s a little easier to navigate I find. But definitely don’t want to cause more cuz it was, it’s, it was stressful.
It’s a lot when they’re, I think super time. I think my daughter was just born or about to be born. It was just so much goes into that. So I just, I didn’t wanna create any more unneeded use of energy that I didn’t need to give away.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Travis:
So I appreciate that. And And, I appreciate your, that we, we, there’s an alignment happening that was happening that I didn’t even know about. I’m on your end. And so I think that’s probably why we’re still here today having this conversation.
Wendy:
It’s so cool. Yeah. We just, it’s so beautiful to see things shift in culture, right? And like back in the day, like you would’ve just booked the interview, you would’ve just gone to work and wife would’ve handled it. And it’s just shifting so beautifully now. And fathers like you and Terry and so many fathers in our community just really show up. You know, they just really show up. So it’s awesome. But today we’re gonna talk about trauma. Before we get into it, Travis, will you just tell us a little bit of your story? Why did you become, you know, what is, how did you land on your career and tell us what your days look like now and why you’re so passionate about helping dads.
Travis:
Yeah, so I guess long story short, just to keep it succinct, my parents got separated initially when I was a senior year in high school. So I didn’t know anything was going on in my, in my mind it was a normal family there. I didn’t have any major fighting, you know, no screaming, no, no, like overt, explicit stuff that would’ve given me any clues that there was any trouble with my parents’ marriage. And in fact, I have this vivid memory of, I think prior to it happening about a year or so, sitting at a legend for some reason, I think a friend was going through something, And I asked my parents like, oh yeah, we would never do this. And so that was in my head. And then a year later they got separated.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Travis:
And so that, that that kind of like, you know, that started stuff. And I was a senior, my brother. And that, you know, that really affected our family and, and in a different way. I was, the older brother became very like parent and taking care of my brother and all the stuff happened between his Torres apart pretty big, pretty bad. And he got really, he was anger more outward. I was more, you know, stuffing my anger, I guess, as you would say. It came out later. But at the time it was more just pushing, stuffing stuff down with oppression and, and trying to cope. You know, looking back I knew that at the time I didn’t have language for it. I think I was just trying to just go to school and finish and just figure life out. So fast forward parents, you know, early twenties, a couple years later tried working on their marriage, separated again.
So kind of this on off again thing. And so I remember then a couple years later, again in graduate school for, I was actually a theology major prior And I was in graduate school for that. And I got a call from my mom. It was a, it was a weekend intensive. It was like a three day weekend intensive training for like a big class. And she’s like, oh, we’re we’re officially getting divorced. And I. Remember her sitting there. And I just hit me for whatever reason, I know it’s, it was been on and off again for years at that time. I was kind of numb to it. I would say probably a bit just the rollercoaster. And I was like, you know, I told my professor, you know, I think I need to just pause.
I, I just need to pause. And someone recommended me a counselor And I. Literally within the next week. I never went to therapy, never. Nothing like that. I think I knew people, I knew this counselor, but like, I just, we never talked about it. I think I wasn’t necessarily against it. I was just like, sure, okay. It was just more, okay, I gotta do something. And that seems like makes sense. Although I knew little about it. Yeah. And I just started going And I saw her, you know, week weekly for well over a year. And, I started working through just my emotions and anger and hurt. Just everything from the, the divorce and, and also then how I, how I was coping with it and realized maybe some of other ways I was coping wasn’t really so healthy and working through those things.
And back then I had a pattern of finding relationships around the holiday season, getting super over committed and then pushing away once the holidays were over. And then rinsing and repeating every year. And, I. Remember when I had that realization, it hit me. I was actually in a relationship at the time. And, I, And I just like all of a sudden hit me. I’m like, oh, I’m totally, well I do, I’m, I’m not a horrible, mean person, but I’m fully using this person at the, at the core of who I am. It’s really out of loneliness and not wanting to be alone and isolated and looking for this person to fill that hole. And I remember having it was like probably the first time I didn’t blame it on something else. Like, I mean, cause I used to make up stuff when I’d break up. Oh, it’s not the right time or yeah, you know,
Wendy:
blame, good old blame,
Travis:
You know, like, or, you know, I, I need more space for me and God, you know, whatever, whatever you use. And, and this time I was actually very honest with this person and just said, you know, I, this is what I’m doing and this is not all that I’m doing. Like obviously I do care. I’m, I’m not, I’m nice to you, but at the core, I’m, I really am kind of using you. And that was a hard conversation but sobering for me to have. And then I just kept work doing my work and in that process I realized I think I really wanna be a therapist. And my, my therapist at the time encouraged me. She kind of saw that I had a gifting and had me think about, cause I was kind of in a place of, I didn’t know what I wanted to do next, kind of searching. But I knew I wanted to help people. I knew I had a heart for people.
I knew I had a passion to help people in pain and walk them through it. And she’s, she kind of said, Hey, have you thought about that? At first I was like, no, I never thought about this. And then I started looking into it. Research eventually went to back to school, got a second bachelor’s degree, then went to graduate school. Went to graduate school at Cal State Fullerton up here. In fact, that was another, another story for another day. But had a moment of, you know, kind of getting, maybe going away from becoming a therapist. I had another opportunity down, down in San Diego to move back to San Diego to do music. So I kind of had this, you know, six month process of talking with people and getting guidance and wisdom. And then the door opened at the school.
I’m like, okay, this is where I’m supposed to go. Did that, became a therapist. I was, gosh married at the time when I was in graduate school. And, and then got finished graduate school, did all my hours. And then I think at, right before I took my exam, found out we were pregnant, which was a big deal. Took us six years to get pregnant. That would get another story. Got pregnant, got high anxiety that week. I remember that. Cause I needed to pass the exam. Cause if you don’t, you have to wait like three or four months to take it again. The licensing exam, you can’t just take it. So, oh, it just extends everything. At least for therapists. Yeah. And, I. Think other, other big lawyers are similar too. I think they can’t take it right away. They have to wait like a time. But past the exam, that was very relieving.
And then got offered a job, had our first kid and then just kind of now I’m, you know, three kids in and, and now it’s been licensed fully for seven years. Fully licensed. Been kind of practicing for 10. If you go back to the hours, you have to accumulate, it’s about three years or so to get your hours done. So now passion for dads. Okay. Long, long story short, working with a lot of men and dads in my office and being a dad and a man myself, just always coming up against the classic, still classic fear around emotions with men, fear being vulnerable, chops, you know, goes back to And. I’ve listened to quite a few episodes on this. I can’t remember who you had a speaker on. Who has an organization did those movies about the boys, And I, can’t think of her name now.
Mask You live in. Have you seen that yet? Yes, yes, yes. Powerful and totally, I relate to definitely some of that. You know, you know, being grown up in sports and being told you’re a wuss or a whole bunch of other slurs that are thrown our way if we show emotions and very much that kind of like un I call it unhealthy unbalanced masculinity where we have to kind of be very pigeonholed in the certain traits. And only those traits are allowed. And if you’re not, then you’re an outcast. And so I definitely experienced that for sure. And then all the men I see in my office, a lot of ’em experience that. A lot of ’em don’t talk to people. A lot of ’em don’t have vulnerable relationships. A lot of them just kind of like our little silos, you know, just by themselves trying to like navigate life.
But suffering is struggling and de you know, depression, anxiety, trauma, PTSD a whole slew of issues. A lot of fear. I can’t tell you to this day, I still have men coming in my office with how progressed we are. Yeah. Progressed. We are quotes. Men to this day still tell me that this is still difficult for them to talk to a therapist to even go in this space. So we still have a long way to go. Yes, we’ve come a long way, but I think still a long way to go. And then you throw dads in there. That’s another layer, another layer of isolation, another layer of like on top of being a man, now my, I’m a dad, I got And I get stuck in these provider roles. And not that that’s bad, providing nothing wrong with providing, but it becomes even more like narrowed down.
And then having friends tends to kind of go away because now they’re a dad and now they might already struggle with vulnerable relationships and now they have less time. And so then they get more silent, more, more separate, more stressed out, more overwhelming. And things just add up. And they’re really trying, I think. And they’re what they know how to do. And so it launched from kind of hearing these stories, hearing men’s suffering and struggling hearing dads and saying, gosh, we need more space for men and fathers to, to, to have a space for them to come and show up and be them. And to kind of really start with acceptance of who they are in that space without judgment. Cause I, I think there is kind of this thing in society today that we do ex there’s some level of expectation that men should be able to turn in a dime and just all of a sudden be emotional.
Now I agree with we need to get men to get there, we need to help them. But that would be And I think it ties in this conversation well is that a lot of men have experienced a significant type of trauma – traumas – and there’s different types that keep them stuck. And so often we need to heal with them and help them heal some of those things so they can feel safe to open up. Cuz without safety, you, you can’t be vulnerable without safety. You won’t be able to be open and have deep, intimate relationships because there’s hurt and there’s barriers and blockages keeping you from getting there. And so I think we need to also have a lot of empathy Yes. And challenge men. Yes. We need to challenge ’em. Absolutely. Do many be more emotionally intelligent? Absolutely. But there has to be a process and a time of healing.
We, we can’t, men are not just vending machines. We need to really meet them where they are in their story, in their journey and, and alongside and as we challenge them to grow and to become more emotionally intelligent for their kids, for their families, and for society.
Wendy:
Heckguess. So. Good. Yeah. I love all that. And it’s like as, as we were preparing today, like what we’re gonna chat about, it’s like I knew that this subject of trauma that we’re gonna get into what is trauma, what are the different types of trauma? And then all these reasons why you wanna heal from it are so beautiful. Because 93% of our listeners are female and then we actually 7%, which are male, which is great. But I am like, I envision this podcast getting into the hands of so many spouses through this episode, right? And so if you’re listening right now, you know, really invite, you know, so I think so many men are just not, like, Terry’s actually just gotten on the podcast train like a year ago, probably.
I mean, you’ve been a podcast, you’ve been hosting with me, but you’ve started listening to your own podcast probably for like a year now. But a lot of men don’t listen to podcasts yet, right? So it’s like, I think sometimes it takes that invitation and inviting them and letting them know like, hey, there’s this awesome conversation going on here that can really support you. Because we do know, right? I mean we have hundreds of families all over the world in our membership and thousands of students we served all over the world. And this is the norm, everything that you’re talking about, right? Like the suppression and the, all of it. So it’s like this goal to pour into the women listening because everyone, we all need to learn about trauma. We all have versions of trauma that we’re healing from. But then with this beautiful vision of also inviting more and more men into this space and just normalizing, normalizing what we’re doing here.
That this is not a female thing, right? Like and that’s so much of your work is so beautiful. It’s to support these guys just to, just to normalize it. Like this is just something you do. You, you either have a therapist, you have a life coach, and then the more you’re able to do everything that you said, the easier it is to actually parent the way that we teach you. Right. Which is all relationship
Travis:
Yes.
Wendy:
Based parenting. So, right. It is, it is really tough to do that when you have a lot, lot of unhealed wounds. Yes. And it just makes it so difficult. So, and then the last, the last vision I had for this, this episode was there are, there are so many men who are super supportive, like you, you and Terry, right? Like they’re just, oh yeah. They don’t need to be convinced about relationship-based parenting. They’re, they’re on board, it’s awesome. But there is a lot, and there is a lot of dads who are just clinging to the fear and force model scared to death that if they were to switch into a compassionate firm and kind model Yeah. That it’s permissive, that they’re gonna raise entitled brats that it’s not gonna work.
So they clinging to like corporal punishment and they, they resist and they resist and they resist. And it becomes very challenging in the home. And so, you know, my vision as we’re speaking today is what we’re gonna talk about, I hope will give so many moms compassion for their husbands to understand that it comes from someplace. It, it’s not just some like, Hey, I’m gonna be a pain in the ass and, and not like, no, we’re gonna hit our kid. It’s like, no, there, there’s there it comes from somewhere. So to bring in compassion, like they probably have trauma in their past and the more we invite them in to look at it, then there’s more of a chance that one day they’re gonna be able to receive and say, okay, cool, I’ll watch that lesson.
Or I, okay, I’m willing to, to let you handle the, or I’m willing to, you know, try compassionate discipline tonight instead of the normal, like just threatening a spanking or threatening, but I’m gonna put this kid in his place. And so, because we al we always, I always coach moms that you can’t pressure someone to change. Like you cannot pressure them. Like you cannot force them. Like, but we have so many moms who are like, my husband’s just so not on board, but you, it has to be done in an invitation, invitation way. It has to be done in a, like holding space. Like you deserve, they all men deserve this, but society has just jacked up your guys’ minds to think that you, you don’t need it, you don’t deserve it.
And you’re weak if you’re seeking it. So totally just declaring that right now, that if you are a man and you’re listening, thank you. Thank you. Your strength is just shining through right now. Yeah. Because this is what real strength looks like.
Travis:
Yes, I agree. And real quick, wanna reiterate what you said two things cuz I think it’s so key. One, I get asked all the time, different lives and pockets have been on, you know, how do we help our dads get do this? And I always say, and what you said is beautifully said is we need, and, and in my language, what, and I’m paraphrasing what I would say is we need to approach with curiosity. We need to understand their story and their narrative. I think there’s so much of a lack of understanding of why their husband or partner is where they are today. They don’t know the story. And there’s various reasons why they may not know the story, whether he hasn’t talked about it or they haven’t gone there. But we need to approach it with curiosity because there’s a reason why he is the way he is.
He was a small boy at one point. He was a five-year-old at one point. And so we have to understand, okay, what was that five-year-old’s world like to understand what has shaped him to become the man he is today. The good, the bad, the ugly. And so we need to approach with genuine curiosity. And the problem I think is it, it, a problem I can see is that it takes time. It’s not quick. Sometimes it can be, but often it’s a process of invitation of showing this person you’re safe. Because you’re right, society has told this guy don’t all of his life, and I’m generalizing for those men. Yeah. All of his life has been told not to do these things and now he’s being told by a partner or something else, he needs to do these things. So yeah, his defense is gonna be like, I don’t trust this because my whole life has been all of this hurt and pain and what I’m told not to do my entire life.
So to change here it’s like gentle parenting, why would I do that? I, this is, this is what I know, this is what’s familiar to me. So to do this, this, I don’t trust this yet. There’s no safety here. This is, you’re asking me to get hurt again. And I mean that’s what’s happening to his little five old. Like, no, that’s pain. That’s, that’s hurt that I did that. That didn’t work. And, I was told repeatedly it didn’t work explicitly or implicitly. And so I think to reiterate like that is so key. Curiosity, patience, empathy. And yes, your dad’s gonna change yesterday to heal, but they have to heal first and it’s a kind of a tandem parallel of healing while they’re learning and, and they kind of walk this journey, you know, fumbling a lot.
But if that’s how we approach men and fathers, I think that is a way in.
Terry:
Hmm. It seems like it’s completely counterintuitive culturally and traditionally, like this process of, well first off, I, And, I don’t even know how many men would even acknowledge that they have trauma in their life. Right? Because I think the, you know, the trajectory is typically towards like a hardening of that is the, that’s the way through, that’s where you’re headed. So this idea that you would actually look back, open up, inspect, work with it, ask questions about it, like you said is almost like a, oh you want me to take the scab off that’s gonna hurt and then I’m gonna have to heal from that all over again.
Yeah. Like, it’s like no, like no, I, I I I rubbed dirt on it and spit on it a long time ago. And I, I’m gonna keep going. And then, you know, almost every narrative that you see in like very male driven like movies and the story is like the person hardens, they get tougher and they kill the other person. You know, they don’t like reflect and be like, oh you know what? Wow, I’m seeing this in a different light and I’m gonna make friends with that person, or I’m gonna do the right thing. I mean,
Travis:
Do exist. But yeah, I know. Well there’s Les Miserables. That’s a good one. That’s a, that’s a great one for forgiveness. But anyway, but yeah, you’re right. Most movies is not that. It’s, it’s the, it’s the revenge story. It’s the overcoming,
Terry:
I haven’t seen this movie Travis: Les Miserables. It’s like a famous play. It’s one of the famous plays
Wendy:
Oh, Les Miserables. Got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought you said lame as a rob.
Travis:
So la la Sorry. No, sorry to interrupt. Sorry.
Terry:
I’m the one that can’t hear while she
Travis:
Yeah. Less Miserable, right. If you wanna do that one
Terry:
Less. Exactly. Yeah. So I mean it just leads me, the question though I was thinking about is like, I know by the time, you know, a dad, a guy gets into your office, they’ve taken some steps. But like, I’m just curious like in general, like do most of them even realize that there’s been some sort of trauma in their life or is that something that that only comes out later?
Travis:
Oh, I’d say 95%. No, because I think it’s how we define trauma. And I think And I. This is not my, this is, I’m taking this from the current researchers on trauma and the neuropsychology neuroscientists on trauma understanding the brain. And we definitely know a lot more now than we did, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. And that’s, even that goes with parenting too. We know more about the brain and the developing brain impact on, you know, that trauma could have on the brain than we did 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago. I mean that’s why parenting back then was very different and why a lot of research is coming in now, why we’re changing what we’re doing. And so trauma’s the same way And I think this is one way was defined by Dr. Dan Siegel who kind of, you know, came up with our window of tolerance.
And, and that’s kind of a thing in the trauma world that we all have this window of tolerance of what we can, you know, how much we can take on staying composed without being overwhelmed into kind of a fight flight state or into kind of a, a dorsal, you know, shut down, immobilized, depressed state cuz it’s too much for us. We all have this window and you know, it’s different for all of us, but essentially if we’re in our window we can, we can take on a lot and we can process and we can cope and we can manage and we kind of navigate as soon as we get outside that. And what he says is trauma is anything that overwhelms a person’s current capacity to cope. So trauma is anything and this is the brain, anything that overwhelms the brain or the body and overwhelms their current capacity to cope.
So it kind of opens up the whole definition of what trauma is, right? Because we think trauma, which is classically capital T trauma, we think, you know, my buddy got shot at war and blow up in front of me. You know, we think of, you know, sexual or physical assault, right? We think of, you know, a c significant major car accident, you know, death. Like those are, those are capital T traumas, right? So that’s what most people think of. And I’d say yeah, that’s definitely where we get a lot of PTSD, anxiety, panic disorder, depression, whatever. But that’s one type And I think that’s, for the longest time all we thought trauma was And I think a lot of men, even women go to, well that never happened to me.
I never had that. Now, now some do I get definitely that come to my door and there’s been abuse a absolutely that type of abuse. But I’d say the more that I see is not capital T trauma, it’s the lowercase T trauma. This is more relational trauma. This is more of what was absent or what you did not receive in the home. So for example, classic guy probably growing up in a home, I’m, I’m kind of putting a couple men together that I’ve worked with going home, there was maybe no little to no physical affection or touch. There was maybe often more often than not told when he was hurting or sad to, you know, go to his room to shut up, stop feeling don’t be such a wuss or you know, all the other words stop crying.
Right? So he’s told repeatedly over and over and over again to not feel that he, something’s wrong with him if he’s feeling that he’s less than or other than what he is. And so that what that can create over time, you know, that’s, that’s called a kind of developmental deficit or a attachment deficit. What I mean by that is the role of parent is to be one that creates a secure, safe, soothing space to be for kids to be seen and comforted, which helps them essentially develop the, the, the, the emotional capacity intelligence needed to become healthily independent as well as interdependent upon others to have a good sense of who they are and their identity.
Travis:
Now these men that were raised in homes, not told not to feel the shutdown, to not feel these things that they need to go to the room that they need to go and, you know, brush themself up, come back when you’re not crying what they’re learning. That’s an emotional type of trauma. That’s a suppression, that’s a, you cannot feel. And so they have to, what this child has to learn is that people are not safe to feel this and that something’s wrong with me if I feel this way, if I feel sad, if I have a tear, if I, if I maybe show some worry or anxiety, I’m told to do something with that. To not, to not show it, to, to be dismissed, right?
So they again develop this internal dialogue that, okay, something’s wrong if I feel it, I shouldn’t feel this way, that’s bad. And so they learn to push this down, push us down, push us down, push us down over years and years and years. And that comes into now as an adult, what they can’t sit with anything that’s a difficult emotion that might look like a dad, for example. Having a really short emotional fusing, getting really angry and frustrated quickly because maybe that emotion was okay or allowed in the home cuz he saw maybe his dad or mom showing frustration or anger or yelling. And so now he’s, that’s his trigger point. He can’t sit with emotions that’s uncomfortable for him. And so that’s, and that maybe lead to this guy having a lot of anxiety.
Maybe the guy having depression that can lead to PTSD depending on how significant some of those things were told. In fact, I thinking of a guy I worked with, you know, his mom, and this is actually coming from not even his father, but his mother would just berate him, verbally just berate him. And he was just a little kid and he has his memory of just sitting there, just stunned and frozen in time. And his mom also abused alcohol at the same time. So he’d walk in the house and she would just berate him, And I. And he never knew yeah, at what point if mom was gonna be okay or not okay, do I tell mom this? Do I not tell mom this? And he remembers thinking And I said, don’t tell mom this, don’t tell her how your day was at school. Don’t say this. You know, even if he was picked on, in fact he remembers being bullied.
He’d go to his mom saying he was bullied. His mom would actually hurt him verbally and emotionally versus saying, let me help you. She would just rail into him. And so that is what I see more often. I see more of what was not there, the absence of that love, the absence of someone attuning to him. And so he has no grid, no language, no like no, no foundation to even know what to start with as an adult male now or as a father now to know what he’s actually even feeling. Often men too are so disconnected from their body cuz they had to, so they don’t even know what their body’s saying to them.
They feel numb, they feel nothing. They feel absence. It’s like, I don’t know, I don’t know what I feel. I don’t know what my body’s, I don’t know. I never, I have no idea why body’s going on. Like they’re so disintegrated because they had to be to survive. Because our, our nervous system, this goes to how our nervous system and brain works. If there’s a threat, whether it’s a cougar coming at you or a bear or an angry parent screaming at you, your nervous system says this is a threat. This isn’t safe. So go into some survival state. So that’s fight flight or that’s freeze or fawn, fawn’s, the other one, people pleasing and, you know, helping. And you know, that’s, that’s kind of an in between state of fight, flight, freeze. But that’s what happens. And if you’re in this constant state, most of your life growing up in this kind of threat, well over time, your capacity, your window of tolerance begins to shrink and you can easily get thrust into your own state of fight, flight, freeze.
This is why a lot of men tend to leave or in conflict they avoid. Right? I run away from conflict because that’s what I know to do. I worked with a lot of couples, a lot of classic guy. I give in, what does a guy do? He goes to his garage, he shuts down, he actually often disconnects and becomes numb. That’s a way of coping and surviving because his brain, his body, it has surpassed his window of tolerance and it’s an emotional state of survival. And once I start to help men understand that, they’re like, oh yeah, that makes so much more sense. That’s totally what it was like for me, but I have to do a lot of education around them.
Wendy:
Yeah. Well, and and what you’re describing is, so, I mean it’s all the women listening to are like, oh yeah, boom, there it is. Right? Like the lack of the, the idea that trauma is, can be the lack of something, right? The things you didn’t get as a kid. And so you talked so much there about what I would just call safety. Yes. Like safety to be human. So safety to have emotions, which is this basic human necessity just to feel emotions every day, right? It’s part of our, what we do, we breathe, we we we feel, and then also like the emotional safety. But then you add in the physical safety that was so lacking in so many homes, right? Whereas if you know the safety to be human in the regards of like, it was lacking in so many homes because if you made a mistake, there was literal danger.
Like you were going to get to get hurt one way or another, whether it was emotional or physical. And not everyone had that in their home, right? Like, but it was there. So on top of that, like you don’t, you don’t feel safe to feel and then you don’t feel safe to make a mistake, right? So all over the place, there’s just a lack of safety and that’s like the most well-meaning parents, right? Who were following the, the model. Like if your kid is bad, spanking was advocated for, I mean that was like, yeah, yeah. I mean put ’em like make sure like they know what they did bad and make ’em feel worse in order to make ’em feel better. Is the weirdest cultural
Travis:
Isolate them right? Isolate ’em. Yeah. Like
Wendy:
They really just thought like, that’s what you need to do. So it makes total sense how when you listen to it in this capacity, like the things that so many of us, especially men didn’t have is a form of trauma. And so it’s just so fascinating and, and the fact that it like ignites the brain, right? And then like, it is so interesting. I just, the other night I was on the trail And I, I ran into a coyote that would not let me pass with my two big dogs. Oh. And then the next night, so last night I was walking down And I was like, shit, I didn’t, I didn’t come down before dark enough. And I was already like kind of on edge. And I was looking everywhere. And I was like, but we got down the hill. But I could tell that my nervous system was really stressed still because I was, I was worried, I was scared the whole time.
And that was just after one run in with this tiny coyote that it just like I, and then I was thinking as you were talking about the times when like our strong-willed daughter, I have felt triggered by something. It’s the same feeling within my body. Right? Right. So it’s just so interesting, right? We, we ju like we talk about how it’s like our body, whether it’s a bear or a coyote, the feeling you have when you’re triggered by a kid, it ignites the same thing. So it’s just, it’s just interesting. Yeah.
Travis:
Even a spouse, even a spouse who’s angry, right? Right. Who says something critical that could trigger a similar response because that’s often maybe a past wound that’s the trauma wound that gets re-triggered. And so anything that comes around that is super sensitive and it’s like almost like an immediate thrust into kind of that fight back or that defensiveness, right? Because there is no safety in that moment. Safety’s gone. It’s like that’s the reminding of you like, you aren’t safe here. There is no safety, this is a threat. Your partner is a threat, your kid is a threat, your boss is a threat because the brain. Yeah. In one sense, what I’ve, what I’ve learned is the brain doesn’t necessarily, it, it’s really good at kind of survival, but it’s, it’s not so great at like determining, you know, you know, is this really a bear?
It’s not so great at like recalibrating. It just kind of goes what it knows because that’s, that’s kind of how survival brain works. It’s like, so to recalibrate that takes like a lot of awareness. So it’s really good at quickly survival. But to get out of that takes time, takes practice, takes different healing models. You know, I do EMDR, so I do a lot of that kind of work and some other somatic work, but that’s why it’s so easily triggered because you’re not just responding to your kid or, but you’re responding to any other emotional or bodily or tone of voice that has happened in, you know, you know umpteen the other times. Cuz that’s what your brain’s saying. Help. That’s a threat. Do what you need to do to survive, get angry, yell, kick, scream, disconnect, go to your garage, go drink, go look at porn, go, you know, whatever it is.
Yeah. To regulate your nervous system and then rinse and repeat.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Travis:
And that’s where men are stuck. So they’re really trying, but they don’t, they don’t know. They don’t really know why they just do it.
Wendy:
Yeah. So women listening, remember that like every time you have the courage to invite your husband in, whether it’s to watch a Fresh Start Family lesson, if you’re inside of our programs, or to reach out to Travis, you know, via Therapy for Dads on Instagram or find out more about his private practice or, or just invite, like keep inviting, right? Like you’re actually helping to get your spouse one place, one, one step closer to healing and bringing more safety into your home. Like it is, I think so many women end up feeling guilty or bad that they’re like, they’re like trying to force this stuff on their husbands. It’s like, no, it’s like the bravery it takes to keep inviting a guy in, even though he has this knee-jerk reaction to say, no, I don’t listen to podcasts, I don’t, well I’m fine.
It’s a, that’s you do, that’s your stuff. You enjoy that. I don’t Well, and then you see him, it’s impossible for him to stay calm when a kid won’t go to bed and he just moves to threats like that or whatever his right flare up is. Like, just know that it’s, it’s so brave and courageous and serving your spouse when you keep inviting because I just believe that every time you invite without pressure, it’s, they just get one step closer to finding the healing that they need. So, okay,
Terry:
And I. And that can be a delicate thing too because like, you know, for someone that’s like how you were saying, like we’re, I mean we’re talking in generalities here a lot about men, but if there’s really been nothing over so many years and then now you’re creating this invitation, creating it in a way and, and, and making it in a way where it’s not like, hey, there’s something wrong with you that’s, or you need to get out of the garage or you need to do like you need to do this, you need to do that. Because the reality is, is almost everybody has at least a, a lowercase t trauma in their life.
Oh yeah. Some people have have capitals and bunch of lowers And I know I’ve got capitals and lowers and stuff. So it’s like, you know, I I would just say, you know, make it feel like it’s normal. It’s for, it’s for everybody. It’s not just like, Hey, I listened to this thing and you need to do it.
Wendy:
That’s a great point, Terry.
Terry:
And, and, and that is delicate because, because you know, just in the tone that you use, like cuz you need to do it is like, could sound very encouraging and loving on the inside, but the way it’s said can make all the difference in the world of like you’re messed up and actually have them retreat even further. And I know that that’s not the the goal. So I just, just pointing that out because gosh, it is so somebody walking in your door is probably 90% of the, you know, the way there, you know, just get ’em in. Yeah. And I and then that last 10% is where really the, the, the real healing happens.
But like yeah, as far as the like, you know, I think about the, the men that we’ve invited to, you know, self-growth weekend courses and stuff that I know have capital t trauma in their life. Yeah. And they’ve even some of ’em have even asked about it listened, but they’re not going Yeah. Yeah. And it’s like, oh man. Like yeah, but you don’t give up on ’em and just, you know, remain very, you know, empathetic and caring and just come from a place that like this is something that we all do and we’re just inviting you to come along with us.
Wendy:
Yeah. Cause you go first is so important, right? Like that’s what I, I always tell my students is like nine outta 10 times, like if they see a kid, if we see a kid struggling with something, in my experience, in my opinion, so many times it’s a, it’s, it’s a mirror. Like you probably are developing that life skill too. Or you are healing from something that, that is triggering within you. So if you go first, then you are just sharing the good news of what it looks like and feels like to be in a healing environment. Like it is not cool in my opinion to be like, I’m not doing anything. I, I just listen to a podcast and you need to go to therapy. Like, no, you be in therapy, you be in, you have a life coach, you be in the Fresh Start Experience, then you can at work with your kids on their misbehavior, then you can invite your husband in but you don’t like, it just doesn’t work well to do it other way around.
So, so good. Well my gosh, we’re already running outta time because this is such a good conversation. So this is gonna be like, this is gonna
Terry:
Be, we still got some more time but we still
Wendy:
Do we yeah, we have a little bit more. Let’s hit our points. Yes. So I know this might be faster than, you know, of course you would wanna go into so much detail about each of these things, but what are the reasons, Travis, that we wanna heal from trauma? Of course we’ve talked so much about some of them, but you had a beautiful post that I’ll make sure we put in the show notes. But you talked about how number one, it’s integration. Number two, it’s relational. Number three, calm and rest. And number four is identity. And just touching on number one, you say integration trauma causes disintegration in our mind, body, soul, when healed we can feel safe in our mind, body, soul, we are reintegrated.
So we kind of already spoke, spoke to that safety piece. But maybe just a few more words and then we can go to number two.
Travis:
Yeah. Cause essentially what’s going on with any type of, you know, trauma, lowercase capital T trauma is that there is a level of disintegration between the mind body. So a splitting and it’s a survival thing. It’s, it’s again, hardwired into us to kind of survive and small bursts of that we most, there’s this idea of resiliency. We don’t really know how to measure it yet, but there’s always this thing called resiliency with some people have more or less, but we know it exists. But there’s been no hard measure to test, you know, what is someone’s resiliency. So I say that, that, you know, we have moments of kind of disintegration and integration throughout our lifespan. Now if we’re stuck in more of those kind of traumatic experiences repeated it, we tend to be more disconnected for survival reasons.
And so when we do that, what can happen is our story or narrative be broken. It could be missing pieces, it could be, it could be for some, like a lack of any emotional attunement or connection to body. It could be a, a disconnection from body. For some it could be actually a hype kind of a hyper connection to emotions like overly emotional. It could go that way too. I’ve seen some men flip, right? You know, generally speaking I’ve seen that more with women generally speaking. But I’ve seen men be in that space too. And I think men more naturally tend to be born disconnected typically. But I do see that where it’s like that, that almost like the radars up and so they’re more anxious, they’re more kind of, you know, panicky, they’re more worried.
And so what happens is when we, when we heal it, it helps the integration because what can happen is these things get stuck in time. Body memory gets stuck in time. You know, like that five year old you remember what it felt like or this emotional part of you stuck in time. And so it creates this kind of like puzzle that’s not, it’s just everywhere pieces are missing. You know, if you were to look at like, what am I looking at right here? Like doesn’t really make sense. Like I see this, but there’s a big hole here. And so when we begin to heal it, it does re it reintegrates mind, body, soul and starts to have this clean narrative which allows for the healing to actually occur. You mentioned scab earlier, right? So you’re right. Another, you know, analogy I gave is like, cuz you have a bunch of these open sores and wounds that haven’t been healed that you’re kind of like putting spit and dirt on, but they’re not actually healing.
And some of these are actually probably getting infected and festering and getting worse, you know? And so the healing process often looks like going in, and this is where sometimes the pain comes, And, I tell people sometimes you do feel, cuz now I’m asking you to feel and I’m helping you get to that state. So sometimes, especially with EMDR, you kind of have moments of that feeling and so you, it’s kind of cleaning the wound out. So it might sting and you have to may dig some dead stuff out analogy. And then that sometimes stings in. But then as you begin to treat it and take care of it now that, that, that, that integration could look like now a scar. And so that scar is a memory. You remember it, you remember maybe mom screaming at you or whatever happening.
But that, that, that pain that was so stuck to it and festering is now, oh I, I, you know, I’m okay now like I survived. I’m not there anymore, you know, and I’m not stuck in that home environment. And so you start to kind of have a clean narrative and the puzzle begins to be a clean picture of like kind of the story and the integration happens where now they can be connected to their body, they can be integrated, left, right brain can be integrated and the body can be integrated. So their window of tolerance begins to grow, like I mentioned earlier, begins to expand as you begin to heal. And so these threats that might have been hair triggers are no longer hair triggers for that person because of the integration that occurs.
Wendy:
So good. And so then I think of like when, like say if you have a dad that anger flares up and, and like he, all of a sudden after therapy and healing starts to realize that he clenches his fist, he gets this feeling in his stomach, his jaw gets tight. Like he starts to be integrated with like his body. Or like those times when you have this fear come up, right like, I just had a student post the other day. She was like, Ugh. She’s like, I made a mistake. She’s like, help me coach me. She’s like, in the grocery store, full-blown tantrum. She’s like, Ugh, And I, spanked. But like, we, we love our community cuz we’re like, yeah, come in as you are. We’ll support you. Like we are. There’s no shame here. But in that moment, I can imagine that she had this feeling inside her body of like, danger, danger.
But because she wasn’t integrated, she couldn’t tell, is this a real danger? Is there really like yes. Four alarm fire, or is this a child having misbehavior that I I am, I am safe. Right? Yeah. So I think of just how the body communicates to us and it’s very confusing before you receive healing and therapy. And that analogy, my goodness of like, it’s stinging and then it finally healing. Yeah. It’s so, it, it’s just, that’s beautiful, Travis. Okay, so number two, another reason to heal from our trauma relational left unhealed, we have difficulty trusting, feeling safe, secure when healed. We can engage in healthy relationships with ourselves, with others, and with the world.
Travis:
Yeah. You know, did gen you know, quickly answer that generally is that kind of, it kind of said it quickly in that post was, yeah, if you have this wound and this fear of like, you know, for men, if I share what I’m actually thinking or feeling or show an emotion, there’s gonna always be a relational barrier between not only your kids but your partner. Because that’s not safe. Again, not safe to show these feelings. This side of me is not safe. And so I’m always gonna have this guard up, this defensiveness around it. And if anything actually begins to penetrate it, I might get angry or shut down. Like, again, I might fight flight or I might run away or freeze and shut down because that’s not safe. And so, even with my kids, that can trigger that same defensive fight, flight, freeze response. Like you said, even in the store that happened to dads, like, all of a sudden, bam, I’m now having to react to this.
And so there’s gonna be a barrier because this is not safe for me. They may not be to always say it verbally, but it’s a felt thing. It’s like, it’s automatic. It’s like they’re in this state, boom, they’re in there. It’s like a, it’s that, you know, that fight flight as you’re not thinking here, it’s, it’s just, you’re thrust into it. And so as we heal from those past wounds, whatever those are, we develop a new sense of safety that actually I don’t need to fear these feelings. I don’t need to fear this bodily response. And the example you gave with the, you know, the mom in the store is like, okay, this isn’t really a threat against me. This is just my kiddo or my spouse actually just needing me to be with them and create that safety.
Like, cuz that’s what I needed as a kid. I needed someone to sit with me. And so I always tell guys this too. And, and moms And, I, cause I I also work with women is like, Hey, you all in this healing process, you get the opportunity to be that parent that you needed, that you didn’t receive. And so in that space, you’re also healing some of those wounds yourself. As you begin to kind of enact these, this state of safety in creating it, you, you’re doing that to your child’s self as well. And so that’s the beautiful thing, that relational piece. And what happens is it actually allows for more intimacy and vulnerability with their partner, with their kids. They realize that, you know, there really isn’t anything that’s not safe. And that, and as that safety begins to develop, there’s a calmness that comes around.
There’s a, a capacity to regulate yourself better. You’re still gonna make mistakes. You’re still gonna get stuck. Hey, you know, I do, I’m a therapist in training this stuff. And the other day I, I got frustrated. Absolutely. But what I do is I recognize and say, Ooh, I was dysregulated. Oh my gosh. I was, I need to say sorry to my kids. You know, I, my voice, my tone went up. I was sharper, I was not calm. And where did that come from? From me? What, what was my trigger? And it actually heals the relational rifts that occur in all relationships because we we’re human. We have our moments, we’re, we’re gonna say things sometimes no matter if, whatever you got a PhD behind your name or have nothing behind it doesn’t matter who you are. I dunno how, how integrated you are, you know, unless you’re Buddha, you know, or someone, I mean, I, you know, there’s, but that’s no one’s that person, right?
Like, there’s certain people, they’re like, yeah, these are epitomes, but we all have our moments. And so that relational piece, it allows and it creates this more deeply connected space where now your kids know they can come to dad, come to dad and say, Hey, here I’m at, my dad’s gonna be there with me. He’s not gonna shut me down. He’s not gonna judge me. He’s gonna listen and be this safe thing, this safe entity, this person that I need him to be. And he is gonna be strong too. Right? Because that is strength.
Wendy:
Yeah. Oh, it’s so cool to see all this like, manifesting into the teenage years. I know you got little ones and so many people listening have little ones. But man, it just feels so good to be able to like, get to the place where you are that for your kids. Like once you have healed from so much, which I now sit in that seat, right? Like there’s, I mean I just had like this crazy profound healing that happened over the last two weeks. But I really feel like after 12 years I’m like, dang man, there has been so much healing. But just sitting there, having a conversation with my teenager on the way to volleyball yesterday and really being able, and the next point is like rest, being able to like rest and like be, be in the moment, be present, live in the moment.
But it just feels so good to be able to like, hold that space for a kid and not panic and not freak out when you hear there’s a mistake being made for this almost 16 year old kid that instead of hiding it, they’re actually sharing it with you and confiding in you because they trust you and they feel safe. It’s like, holy shit, I’m doing it. I’m doing it. I’m doing what I never had. And it feels so good. Even though it’s scary in the moment. Yeah. Like, it’s just so cool how it, it all of this, like right now being in those years when we’re raising teenagers, oh, it’s just, it just feels so good. So yeah. Okay. Next one. We have two more before we wrap. If, if you still have time, Travis? Yeah. Yeah,
Travis:
I’m good. Yeah, I’m
Wendy:
Good. Ok. Ok. Good. So number three, calm rest. Our third reason to heal is unhealed – being unhealed often means you’re easily triggered into a fight flight, freeze response. We can’t fully relax. We’re always in this kind of heightened arousal state. Being healed means our nervous system can rest, therefore we can rest be present live in the moment,
Travis:
Right? Yeah, exactly. What I said was, you know, if we’re still having these wounds that are open, you know, any moment we’re not gonna be able to be calm and rest. Because again, it goes back to safety. If I’m not safe, your, your threat meter’s automatic, your amygdala, that part of your, your, your vagal nerve, your vagus nerve, right? That’s that our polyvagal nerve that runs from the bottom of our brain saying down on our heart and even deeper, it’s this connection of our, kind of our alarm system. So if those things left unhealed, your, your nervous system won’t allow you to be calm because the threats still exist. And so once we understand that nervous system needs to re be retrained needs, one needs to heal and also needs to be recalibrated sometimes. Cause our nervous system is for some of us, and real quick, I I wanna say this, that some of us have a nervous system that is detuned, meaning it’s like they’ve had so much trauma that it’s like completely disconnected where they might need to actually sense threats, but they don’t.
And this is people that are tendency, they’re stuck in like abusive relationships. I, because they’re like, they, they kinda make these excuses, but what that is is more of a nervous system that is, that doesn’t detect the threat when it needs to because they’ve been detuned and you got other people who are like overly tuned, like they’re overly sensitive to like threats when there is no threat. It’s like, there’s no threat here. Like for that mom in this grocery with the kid, like for you, that’s not a threat, but you’re, you’re, you’re nervous is system is saying threat. Like, ah, right. You know? Yeah. Panic, right? It’s like, well that’s not a threat for you, so we gotta re reattune that, readjust that. And what that enables you to do is, again, be integrated, be in a, you know, you, you might have still a sympathetic response because it, you’re still activated, mobilized to kind of take care of what needs to happen.
But you’re more able to get into that kind of ventral, kind of ventral state, that kind of parasympathetic or calm state to be able to rest, to be able to sit with our kids, right. To be able to take on their stress and to remain calm into a ventral calm state, which actually helps our kids co-regulate. Yeah. When we’re calm, our ki now it’s not always like that. Our kids might still be dysregulated, but we’re doing is we’re providing a safe space, but we can only get there if we first do some of our own work. Because if we’re constantly in our fight flight, we won’t be able to be calm and rest. Cuz we’re gonna always be triggered with our kids. And every time they’re dis destroyed, we’re dysregulated because it’s a threat to our nervous system.
So once we integrate, once we heal we have more capacity to stay in that calm rested state, a non-anxious state, a vento kind of parasympathetic state, which enables our kids to be able to co-regulate with us, our partners co-regulate with us. And then we’re able to actually be kind of in this part of our brain, which is our kind of prefrontal cortex, right? To actually think through things, to be engaged, to be attuned to, to connect with our kids and our partners. You can’t be attuned and connect when you’re in a fight flight free state. You can’t, your survival, you, you, you don’t, yeah. That doesn’t exist in the brain. It’s, it’s either or. So when you’re in that fight, fight state, there is no s when you’re out of it, you can.
So that’s why we want to heal that’s why we wanna work Now I say that the grain of salt, you don’t have to be fully healed. Everything Yeah. To, to be able to get here. It’s not like you gotta take 20 years to heal everything, you know? No, no, no, no. It doesn’t work that way. Actually our brains, our bodies are quite adaptive. Even doing a little bit of work opens up our capacity a little more.
Terry:
That’s good news.
Travis:
Yeah. Thank, thankfully imagine. Thank you.
Terry:
This one, this one’s interesting. The, the calm and rest one. Cause I would think that most logical people would say, yes, I want that actually. I really actually crave that. Like, I want to be present. I want to just be able to just be like, okay. And go and relax. But I think if you find yourself, as many of us are in some sort of a dance with this, this kind of, no, I have to stay hyperactive and, and all this stuff and, and act outta fear of this and fear of that or else, or else what’s gonna happen. I think it’s a sign that you need to do some work. That’s, that’s like, you know, so if you’re listening and you’re like, oh, but I I just don’t have time to go do that.
Oh yeah. Like, I would ask yourself, are you in a kind of like self-imposed dance and air quotes with the behavior or with the scenario that keeps presenting itself over and over again? And if so, that’s a huge signal to say, yeah, go get some help. Talk about what’s, what’s lying beneath that because yeah. You know, if you want to get to that place, calm rest being present, which I think everybody would say yes, but you have some excuse of why it’s not happening. Oh yeah. A lot of times it’s just because you’re in this, this dance.
Travis:
I, I think it’s very well said. I think absolutely And, I think busyness that I see a lot of men and women, you know, focusing on men today is that being busy and working is a way to cope with that unrest. So I’m, I stay as busy as I can mentally because I can’t, if I’m not doing something now, my mind is overwhelmed with anxiety or worry. And so I stay as busy as I can to cope. And so you’re, they stay in this cycle. Like, but I’m working, I’m doing a good thing. I’m making money for the family, I’m doing this. Like, yeah, those are good. It’s justified. Yeah, it’s justified. It’s like, but that’s how you’re actually trying to regulate your nervous system is by being so busy that by the time you put your head on the pedal, you’re so exhausted, but there’s no rested there.
You’re still exhausted every day. You wake up, you’re still anxious and worried every day you wake up. And some guys even too, they go, you know, another layer on top of being busy is now they drink at night to fall asleep. Right. They, that’s a very classic one. I got down my mind or they smoke, right? They, they smoke weed or they, whatever it is to help that. And then it’s like, well, you know, it’s just a little bit, you know, it’s like, okay, great, I’m, I’m, but why are you doing it? What’s like, you said, what’s behind this drive? And often it’s fear. It’s something else that’s behind. And you know, once I get working with ’em, I always find it. It’s just getting ’em in the door to talk about it.
Terry:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s so point number four, it’s identity. So you say with, with trauma often comes shame and unhealthy guilt. This often keeps us stuck. What it looks like when you’re healed is we no longer buy into those negative shame messages or beliefs. Yeah. We are able to see the truth of who we are.
Travis:
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Boom. One I see a lot with men predominantly. And a lot of people have talked about this, you know, in research and, you know, I’m thinking of the book Daring Greatly by Brené Brown. She did a lot of research on shame and there’s other books on shame, but that’s a, a pretty great one. And through her 10 years of research, looking at shame and our culture is that the one thing that men tend to struggle with, And, I also have just something I struggled with before I was doing my healing work. And very thing I hear nine times outta 10 with man, is that I’m not enough. You know, I’m not good enough. So this is this deep drive to prove self, to prove that they’re enough.
By often, for a lot of men, it’s, it’s job titles, it’s financial, you know, it’s the, you know, the next promotion. You know, it’s having a bigger house or the car, whatever it might be to show and prove to themselves they’re enough that they’re, that they’re not, that they are enough. Well here’s the thing, they’re never enough. Because that lie is so integrated that no matter what they accomplish, it doesn’t never solves that problem. Hmm. And so they’re constantly in the state of trying to prove themselves. And that can look like anxiety, that could look like, that can manifest in depression, that could work, that could manifest in, you know, workaholism or alcohol. A whole bunch of things that could look like, you know, not allowing your kids to fail that could look like your kids if they don’t get anything, but as something’s wrong with them.
Right. That could look like, you know, instead of having empathy and understanding with your kid, it’s like, you know, I told you so, you know, I told, you know, it’s this like this dominating, domineering type of role as a parent, as a father. And because that’s what they tell themselves inside because that’s what they’ve always known. That somehow something’s wrong with them. I’m not enough, I’m not good enough. And, I gotta prove myself. So you gotta prove yourself too. And so it kind of manifests in this kind of false shame identity that is always rooted in fear. Because if people really knew who I was, they would, they would leave me. They’d abandon me, they reject me. And so it’s this kind of facade we put up to, to be this strong person, strong and hyper unbalanced, masculine.
And you know, this mask that we all wear to show other men or people in our world that we are, that we’re smart, that we got it. No matter what industry you find yourself in, it’s this constant proving, you know, I gotta do the next thing. And I can’t stop. And so as we begin to heal though, we begin to realize that, oh, I am enough. I don’t need to prove myself. And cuz this is what I ask parents all the time and men I work with, I say, okay, think of your kid, you know, you know your daughter, your son is, and just think of them coming to you. Maybe they’re struggling with something. And this is when I have ’em kind of in a calm state in my office when kind of the defenses are down a bit and they’re not, you know, they’re not up here. But I have them a little bit down kind of in a little more of a regulated state.
I’m like, you know, let’s say your kid came to you and you know, they, they didn’t do good on a test or something, or something happened with a friend at school and they come to you and said, you know, dad, they’re crying or something. I’m like, well what would you do? Well I, I’d probably sit there with ’em and hug ’em so they kind of know what to do. It’s like there’s, once they’re calm, it’s like there’s this intrinsic knowing and I’m like, okay, is there anything? And then when you tell your kid, is it, does that test like, or that thing with a friend, does that mean they’re not enough? Like, they’re like, no, not at all. Of course they’re not like there’s, that doesn’t mean anything. And so there’s this intrinsic knowing too that their kid, like who they love, who they care for is enough and the test doesn’t matter. Like it’s just a test. Like, yeah, we’ll work on it. Yeah, we’ll figure it out.
But doesn’t mean they’re not enough. It’s just an exam or so with their friends. Like yeah, it was just them. The kid was mean to them. It didn’t mean they’re not enough and it doesn’t mean they’re, you know, whatever. But then I’m like, well what about you then? Why is that to yourself? And they sit there shocked to this look on their face. They’re like, well cuz it’s me. It’s always the answer. Well it’s me, And, I. They’re like, okay, so you’re the one unique snowflake that deserves to be punished by this. Right. And they like, right. I try to use, break that down. But really there’s this core belief that something I’m unique enough that something’s wrong with me. I have to prove myself and my kid doesn’t. When they’re in that calm state, they truly believe and they know that there’s nothing a kid needs to do to prove their worth. Nothing at all. Nothing. Kids come out with worth in value.
Yeah.
Wendy:
And there’s nothing wrong with ’em. And there’s nothing wrong with us.
Travis:
There’s nothing wrong with them
Wendy:
When we had trauma. Yeah.
Travis:
No, nothing at all. But that’s what happens with trauma is that we in, we inwardly pointed ourselves at the problem, I’m not enough, I’m not important. I’m somehow flawed. I’m, you know, I’m broken. I fill in the blank. I’m not valued, I’m worthless. But the big one with men is I’m not enough. That’s a big narrative here with men. And, I have to prove myself. But once we heal, once we start to heal from that, it’s like I don’t have to prove, and that’s awful. When I see the anxiety go away, I see the stress come down, I see the male to relax and not have to not have to strive to prove themselves at work. I tend to see them also have better boundaries at work. They begin to be more integrated with their families and their friends and kids. Cuz they could, they get out of the proving world and just kind of, I could rest now And I mean all these things.
You’ll see that all these things kind of flow together. Like the integration, the relational, the calm, the rest, the identity. They, they’re all kind of tied together. And as you start to heal, we start to see all these things kind of reintegrate. I mean that’s really what integration is, is if I know my identity is I I am worth something And, I am enough, well then I can be common rest. I can be more relational. I don’t have to strive and be defensive. I can be re I can engage people cuz I know who I am. And, I could then I don’t have to fear these things coming my way. I don’t, these aren’t threats to me. And, I could actually then teach my kids that too. When I get triggered that actually okay, if I maybe, maybe I said some of my kids about their tests.
I’m like, I told you to study. You didn’t study And. I told you. And maybe that old self comes out again. I could then come and realize, maybe take a break, come back, calm down and realize, ooh, that was that shame coming out. Yep. At my kid. Oh man, that’s not, that’s not the truth. And I go to my kids. say, you know what buddy? I’m so sorry that that is so not true. What I said was so incorrect. And you of course heard enough the test, it will figure it out together. There’s always a solution. It has nothing to do with your worth. Has nothing to do with your value. Has nothing to do if you’re not good enough or not. But this was my own stuff coming up that I was afraid of. And you know, I’m working through it too and I’m healing for my stuff.
And I wanna let you know that has nothing to do with that. And so we start to actually catch ourselves and heal that rip that just occurred. And so we’re, in a way, we’re fighting that little shame narrative that’s developing in their little brain. Cuz by the way, shame starts before guilt it, it starts pre-verbal. It’s kind of built into us. It’s just how we’re wired unfortunately. But we can really help equip our kids to fight that narrative and bring the truth in as we saw our vulnerability, which guys is a strength, it’s a major strength to show up. It’s actually much stronger than just showing aggression and all these other things. Yeah. Vulnerability is, is one of the hardest things we can do. I think showing up cuz we are open to harm. And, I think that’s why a lot of men don’t do it is because as soon as they’re vulnerable, it’s like all the armor comes off and what can happen?
Well you can hurt me. And that’s where remain gets stuck is I’m never gonna get hurt again. And so all that armor comes up to protect. And so it takes a lot of strength. Like, like Terry said, 90% of the work is coming in and saying, Ooh, I could take my armor off. That’s so much work to take that off. Yeah. Even for me, when they come in, oh there’s, they have armor off up to wazoo. I sometimes get little glimpses for a little while. They start to kind of take little pieces off and say, oh let’s talk about this. And it’s like they take maybe, you know, a cuff off or like they move their helmet off And. I’m like, okay, let’s talk about that. But they put it back on. Right. It’s, it’s immediate because that’s, that’s instinctive for us to survive. And so we have to like help men too is like, we have to also normalize their instinction their, their natural instinct to survive.
That’s built in. Even women too. We all have that in us. And so we normalize that first. We meet them where they are. Just like that, that mom in your, your group, it’s like no, we meet them where they are. Come as you are. Yeah, we meet you here and we sit as a calling presence. Okay, I’m here with you. Let’s just talk about it. I’m not gonna judge you. I’m not gonna just throw the book at you. That’s gonna cause way more harm and you’ll never come to a therapist again. So yeah, like I know where you need to go, but I’m not, I don’t need to say that too. You already know that. So I’m here with empathy and love and patience and so that’s where we, that’s why we need to work on all these things. And once we do that, the beautiful thing with this guy’s dad’s is you heal this, you heal the generation, you heal the next generations, the next 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 generations to come.
And the reality is, you know what your kids are gonna work need. You’re gonna have to work on something too. Like it’s not perfect. Yeah. It’s not perfection. It’s we’re giving a better version, a better healing to the next. So they have more that they could go farther than us. They could heal more than us. They could take this new information, say Wow, my parents did a lot of work from their parents and probably their parents did a lot of work from their parents. You know, when I didn’t understand my dad’s story by the way, I knew why he separated from mom and got depress and ran away as a kid. I did not know that story. Yeah. Until I got old enough, we had a conversation and my dad for the first time own up to a lot of his stuff. He did And I realized where it came from, his story. He grew up with an alcoholic father. He left home when he was 16.
Yeah, there it is. Yeah. No wonder why, no wonder why he didn’t have the emotional capacity and he got depressed and he ran cuz he, he was doing what he needed to survive now did effect us. Yes. But he took, he got to a much healthier place and that’s, I know not everyone’s story. He got to a healthier place and he took responsibility with me and apologized the first time I heard him apologize for anything in my entire life. Now we have probably one of the best relationships. But it was nice. I didn’t talk to him for three years and my dad, you need help. I’d love you to say I can’t talk to you right now. Yeah.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Travis:
And, I, I got to a place of acceptance that I may never talk to him again, but he did a lot of work. A lot of work. And now we are talking a lot and man, he is such a healed person. But now I can have these conversations realizing there’s a story here. There’s a story for every guy and woman. There’s a story. Yeah. There’s a reason why we do what we do. It’s not just because, and once we listen to the story with ears and eyes to see and a heart that’s open with your husband’s, moms with your partners, with your kiddos, you begin to see the hurting child that is now we need to stop unhealthy, hurtful behavior. Yes, absolutely. Like a hundred percent we need to change these things.
Especially if it’s harmful and hurtful. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. We gotta start with empathy in seeing the child that’s actually hurting. Yeah. And that shifts our perspective big time. And so that’s, that’s why we want, that’s why I do this work. That’s why I’m so passionate about it is really for the next generations.
Wendy:
Oh, so good, Travis, what a good wrap up. And that that number four point, I mean, man, the identity thing like and the work. Aha. The workaholism, is that a word? I mean it’s, I’ve learned that like high functioning anxiety is something that, I don’t know if there’s a stat out there, but I’m pretty sure that I would, I would guess like there’s a huge percentage And I realized I was in that category like the last few years building this business and just after 12 years, like realized that I had this like nugget of freaking shame so deep down in me, it just, it was like bubbling at the surface over the last few years trying to get out And, I finally like found one of the root causes just in the last few weeks of like
Travis:
Oh, that’s amazing.
Wendy:
I know. Like, yeah. Full-blown. I I, for people who wanna listen, it’s an episode called healing Through the Mirror, but full-blown like realization, like there was sexual abuse in my life from an older cousin when I was nine that I was like, oh shit, I suppressed this for 30 years. And now realizing the rates are one in four or three for women and one in seven for men. Yeah. So, and that’s those who report. Right. So I’m thinking it’s like one in five boys and men have this sense of trauma. Oh, totally. And then, then as I started to do all this work, I was like, oh my gosh, no matter if it was an emergency c-section, sexual abuse when I was a kid or like, I don’t know, I’m sure people who just have divorce in their home, right? Like, like you, Terry’s story is similar, had divorced parents.
But it’s so fascinating to me that so many of us, I I form the belief system that something’s wrong with me.
Travis:
Yes. Well cause it’s,
Wendy:
That is like
Travis:
Especially child brains cuz we’re, we are egocentric, so we naturally blame self for the cause because that’s how our brains work when we’re little. Like we go inward.
Wendy:
It’s Wild, but even like. Yeah. And, and the learning and the, the, the conditioning in our brain from so young. And then like when I looked back at my emergency c-section where Stella And I literally almost died. And I realized I felt like something was wrong with me. Like I’d done something wrong. And I’m like, dang. Like so just so much has happened for me in the past few years around this that I finally feel like I’ve had this crazy healing. And so that point number four is just like, I can just imagine like if we can just help our men get curious. Yeah. Just stay curious. Like what is it? Yeah, what was it? Yeah. Like what, what was there that you may have been suppressing for all these years?
Yeah. But all of us have it. Little t big T like whether it was a divorce or something that happened to you, but like there is a reason why you have these closed behaviors, these protection behaviors, whatever you wanna call it. High functioning anxiety. And it just, I’m so thankful that you have, I mean you speak so it’s so easy to understand all of this Travis, from the way you explain it. So thank you so much for your work. The, everything that you’re doing through your podcast, through your private practice, you’re doing a million things right now. The way you’re raising your children, the way you’re supporting your family and your wife. I’m just so thankful for men like you in the world who are supporting all of our amazing men who are part of this community.
Thank you Terry for being here today.
Terry:
Absolutely.
Wendy:
Travis, leave us off with where can everyone find you? Where can they find your podcast? How they, how can they come see you? Like all the things.
Travis:
Yeah, so you know, the Instagram account is a, you know, have a link tree link to all those things. Just therapy for dads with the number four – Therapy 4 Dads, that’s also the podcast name. There is the website, which I actually need to update button with some new information. But that’s also therapy4dads.com. I also have a YouTube channel, which is just more generic stuff. I’m gonna be focusing more on trauma there and kind of cool mindfulness exercises and things to kind of somatic grounding exercises that kind of just helping just educate free stuff to help people. Instagram is a little harder to do that just cuz of the Yeah. Time length. But yeah, really trying to just help. So come find me, DM me on Instagram. I do work, you know, for California. I can only do therapy in California. Licensing weird political stuff.
That’s just the way it is. You know, you know, reach out and if it’s willing to work, you know, I’ll help you out if I can. And if not, or if not, point you in the right direction. I’m well connected in the trauma world too with other good trauma therapists that I know that do this work. And so, you know, I’m here for you even if you have a question. Like I’m friendly, I, I want to help. So if I can, I’ll help you. If not, I’ll, I’ll give you the next step. So please reach out, check out the podcast, share it with people that, you know. I do find men a little more apt to listen to something to, than to read a book. Yeah. Or to step in a door. I feel like that’s a, I feel like a podcast or short thing is easier step, you know, it’s less vulnerable. They just get to receive and they don’t have to go anywhere. So, you know, sometimes that’s a way in and, and moms, I really hope this helps kinda get perspective, And I and even for you moms, like, you know, take care of yourself too.
And, and I think you, you real quick. I do see this guys is that what happens too is sometimes if, you know, both parties are traumatized, we just kind, we get, we all get stuck in our traumatized circle because we all, if we haven’t done, none of us have done our work. What I see with couples is they kind of just trigger each other’s trauma and they get stuck and they spiral, spiral, spiral, spiral, spiral. And they don’t even know why. And so moms says, you do your work too. I firmly believe this is not all on you, trust me. But as you do some of your work too, you have more capacity to not be triggered and regulate too. And that’s that co-regulation and that invites dads into that space. So thank you moms that are, that are working on yourself. Thank you for, for caring and caring about your, your husbands and your boys. Cuz your boys need this too.
Cuz you’re, you’re raising the next generation of men and fathers. So moms keep doing the work you’re doing. Keep showing up for your kids. It does make a difference. You matter to your boys’ lives as well big time. Like your presence matters. And they will remember that because I have men in my office that know that they tell me moms were there, that they listened and that that even gives them a sense of what it looks like to feel safe. So at least they have something to anchor on. So keep doing the work. Guys, thank you so much. If I could help you any way more I can, I’d love to help you guys out. So thanks for having me on.
Wendy:
Yeah, Travis, thanks for being here, you guys and just the power of the podcast, you guys, it’s amazing what you can learn and actually heal through a podcast. So seriously. It like, part of my recent healing story in the last month came from simply listening to a podcast episode with Carlos Whittaker where he like it, it’s crazy. So stuff can unfold, spiders and root causes can be found. So get your men listening to the Therapy 4 Dad’s podcast. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being here, Travis.
For links and more info about everything we talked about in today’s episode, head to freshstartfamilyonline.com/176.
Stella:
For more information, go to freshstartfamilyonline.com. Thanks for listening, families, have a great day.
