Ep. 123 – Parenting without Punishment with Tanya Camps

by | April 14, 2022

Ep. 123 – Parenting without Punishment with Tanya Camps

by | April 14, 2022

The Fresh Start Family Show
The Fresh Start Family Show
Ep. 123 - Parenting without Punishment with Tanya Camps
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This episode of the Fresh Start Family takes a deep dive into compassionate discipline. 

Wendy has Tanya Camps (parenting educator & sleep specialist) on the show to discuss why parents (& kids) benefit greatly when spanking and harsh punishments are removed from their parenting toolkits completely! 

Also discussed are the compassionate discipline tools parents should use instead!

This episode is for parents who: 

– already utilizing positive parenting in their home who often get push back from friends & 

– haven’t quite jumped on board yet

– still find themselves resorting to spanking from time to time. 

In today’s episode we will discuss to keep spanking & harsh punishments out of your parenting toolkit:

  1. It creates fear based obedience.
  2. It breaks trust + connection. 
  3. It can cause children to demonstrate aggressive behavior. 
  4. Does not express unconditional love.
  5. It can cause shame, low self-esteem, anxiety, and depression

Want to learn how to discipline with compassion, connection, and firm kindness?

Click HERE to save your seat!


Episode Highlights:

  • Having NO shame
  • Holding firm beliefs 
  • What to do instead of spanking  
  • Consistency in boundaries
  • Natural consequences
  • Use every opportunity as a moment to teach
  • Understanding power surge stages of life
  • Bringing humility & vulnerability into discipline
  • Building trust & connection through discipline
  • Discipline vs Punishment
  • “Spare the rod, spoil the child” from a compassionate discipline perspective

Resources Mentioned:

TanyaCamps.com

Tanya on Instagram

Tanya’s Apparel Shop

Wendy’s favorite Bible: Life Application Bible

Jesus the Gentle Parent

Connected Families – Discipline that Connects with Your Child’s Heart BOOK – Audio Version

Perspectives on Spanking – FREE ebook

Fresh Start Family Episodes referenced:

FSF Episode 59 – How to Make Discipline Both Compassionate and Effective

FSF Episode 78 – Preventing Abuse

FSF Episode 101 – With Mr. Chazz

FSF Episode 105 – Our Children Being Our Greatest Teachers


Not able to listen or want to read along with us?

Here is the episode transcript!


This episode is brought to you by the free, fresh start family firm and kind compassionate discipline learning guide and worksheet. You can grab your copy at freshstartfamilyonline.com/disciplineguide.

Wendy:

Well, hello listeners. Welcome back to a new episode. I’m your host, Wendy Snyder, positive parenting educator and family life coach. And I am so happy that you are here. We have a very special guest on the show today. Her name is Tanya Camps, and we are talking about how to parent without punishment.


This is one of my favorite subjects to talk about. We’re actually discussing compassionate discipline all month long here on the fresh start family show. And I’m so excited because again, I could talk about this all day long, along with power struggles. This is my favorite subject to talk about the teach, about to encourage families to learn about. So I’m just so happy that you’re here, but I want to take a second to tell you a little bit more about Tanya. She is a parent educator and actually now a toddler sleep support specialist who also runs a really meaningful apparel shop. She just has the cutest stuff that she creates, but she loves Jesus and she is passionate about helping parents shift their lens and parent with purpose.And today she came on the show to talk about parenting without punishment, with a special focus on why it’s such a great idea to remove spanking from our parenting toolkit. So you are going to love this episode if a you’ve already ditched to spanking as an option, but often feel judgment or pressure from family members, friends, neighbors, or maybe in-laws to use corporal punishment, or you’re going to love this episode. If you want to ditch spanking a hundred percent, but you still resort to it every once in a while, because you feel like nothing else, air quotes works.


And if you don’t, your head is just going to explode because you like don’t know what else to do. Right? Just last week we had a beautiful bonfire support member chime in. Someone had shared like, oh, I just had a hard day. I kind of flipped out on my kid. I think she had like yelled at them or just had not been able to kind of make it all the way through kind of a tantrum type of situation. And she said, gosh, I just ended up yelling at my kid. I kind of regret it. I definitely regret it. She said, and she had requested some coaching, but someone chimed in and said, you know, I’m so happy that you posted this because you know, I’ve been studying positive parenting for a while.


They have been part of our bonfire support community for quite some time. And she said, I felt so much shame last week because I resorted to popping my little boy on his butt. And then later just felt like such crap because I’ve been on such a mission to not do that anymore. But she said, you know, but, but she said, but I did. And she said it actually caused me to not come to our live coaching sessions lately because she was just feeling the shame around it. And I thought, oh my gosh, I’m so happy that she posted that because you could tell the community just could relate so much to that feeling of wanting to be totally on board and a hundred percent be like, yes, we only practice compassionate discipline.


We’re doing self calming, self-regulation, natural consequences, logical consequences, all the stuff that I teach my students, how to really integrate into kind of the daily fabric of their life, and really rely on the power of those teaching strategies. But you just have moments where you’re just not quite sure it’s going to work all the way, or you just still are reverting. Or maybe even you’re just still threatening the spankings, right? Like you’re going to love this episode if that’s you or it’s also for all of you, this episode is also going to be one that you love. If maybe this episode is one that someone sent to you, maybe they sent you the link to help you understand their viewpoint.


So maybe you are still a spanker and you think it’s a great way to correct misbehavior and or correct sinful behavior. So what’s, you’re going to hear in this episode is just a passionate but respectful conversation that I pray will help you consider a different way without feeling judged or pressured that you’re doing something wrong because here’s the truth families, all parents are trying. So freaking hard to raise good kind human beings is just not anybody listening to this show who is purposely trying to Jack up their kids.


So I see you. I see you all. I admire you all. And I’m just so happy that you are here listening today. So this month here at fresh start family and on the fresh start family show, as I mentioned in last week’s podcast with connected families who I just love so much, we are having a lot of faith based discussions because it’s the month of Easter at a time to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Can I get a whoop? Who’s the man, Jesus. But I just believe there is no better time to declare that the old way is dead.


This is a season of new life of new growth of a new way. And as the flowers are blooming outside of spring arrives and the baby birds are being born and the trees are all growing their leaves back a new, this is a time for your discipline strategy to get a refresh. It is never too late to start over parents, no matter what kind of day you had yesterday, or no matter what kind of night you had last night, no matter how you chose to raise your kids. Their first few years of life, remember I did not find the work of positive parenting and I did not completely shift my ways till Stella was three and a half years old.


I had times where I thought spanking was the best way to correct her misbehavior and teach her to be a good kind human being. And boy, oh boy, did it not work? And my God am I so thankful, I found a different new way, but you get to decide how you teach your Little’s important life lessons. And every day is a fresh start, especially when it comes to discipline. So today’s episode, I pray will fill your soul with confidence, especially if you’re one of the many families who just feels frozen. When people challenge your decision to teach your kids with compassion, instead of fear, force pain, humiliation, overpowering, and shame.


I pray every point that we discuss in this episode helps you feel a bit more empowered to respond to the air quote challengers in your life with grace and patience, but also from kindness to believe in yourself, to believe in what you stand for and to believe in how you are choosing to discipline your children. And for those who this concept of totally eradicating spanking from your toolkit toolkit is new. Remember, we have so many resources for you here at fresh start family to learn about compassionate discipline, if you’re interested.


So like I mentioned, all this month, I’m focusing on teaching about compassionate discipline and I’d love to have you join me for my free positive parenting workshop. Three steps to building a strong, compassionate firm and kind discipline toolkit that works with kids of all ages. You can save your seat at freshstartfamilyonline.com/disciplineclass. And you’ll learn all about the times and days that that class has offered so big hugs. And thanks as always for listening to our show. If you love this episode, be sure to screenshot it as they’re listening and share it to Instagram or Facebook, I’m really active on Instagram.


Make sure you tag me at fresh sharp Monday. I’d love to hear if you love this talk and if it supported you at all, it also helps when you share out our content to really expand our message and help us spread the light of Jesus in the world. And again, it’s the month of Easter family. Let’s all work together to spread the love and light of Jesus. What do you say? All right, families without further ado, help me welcome my dear friend, Tanya Camps to the show.

Stella:
Well, Hey there, I’m Stella. Welcome to my mom and dad’s podcast. The fresh start family show. We’re so happy. You’re here. We’re inspired by the ocean, Jesus and rock and roll and believe deeply in the true power of loving kindness together. We hope to inspire you to expand your heart, learn new tools and strengthen your family. Enjoy the show.

Wendy:
Well, Hey there families, welcome to a new episode of the fresh start family show. I am so excited to be here with my friend Tanya Camps. Welcome Tanya.

Tanya:
Hi, I’m so excited. This conversation has been stirring in my heart and just so long overdue. So today is the day.

Wendy:
Oh my goodness. You guys, today, we are going to be talking about parenting without punishment. And specifically, we’re going to be encouraging you to really lean in to taking a break from spanking timeouts and harsh punishments, but specifically Tanya. And I really felt called by the Lord to speak about speaking. I know there’s a lot of conversation, obviously in the world, always the history of all time, parenting around spanking, and it has a tendency to be a very heated topic. And we’re going to bring this conversation before you today, just as a open, vulnerable, connected conversation. But first I want, I want to say this to you guys before we get going.


Remember that there is no shame here, right? There is absolute no shame when it comes to what you are doing in your home, how you are choosing to discipline or raise your little human souls. So we want to hold this space today to have no shame. And you’re also going to hear us both talk very firmly about our beliefs, that it is not necessary nor biblically advocated for, to have spanking be included in your discipline toolkit. Okay. But you know, I was telling you, it says a lot in, in what you’ve shared online over the years about this is it’s always okay for you to stop listening and, and to put down what we’re presenting.


Right? And we hope that you don’t, we hope that you stay with us today because really this conversation is for it’s for you. If you’re in one of these camps, one, maybe you are you’re, you know, avid listener to the fresh start family show, or even a student of the foundations course in the bonfire. And you’re like, heck yeah, I love all this positive parenting stuff. I love the gentle connection based stuff. And we still spank every once in a while, because come on when the kid runs in the street or touches a hot stove or smacks his baby sister, like sometimes like it’s just, you know, even with what I’ve learned about compassionate discipline, Wendy, like still, like sometimes we still just pull it out or maybe you’re like, sometimes we still threaten it, right?


Like maybe you’re in that camp where you’re like, I’m mostly practicing compassionate discipline, but over here, I still feel like it’s okay sometimes. Or here’s the second camp you guys. And I really want you to hear this because this is going to serve a lot of different people today. The second camp is for parents who are like, okay, cool. We are done with it. Like either we did it when the kids were younger and we’ve realized like, we don’t want to do that anymore. We don’t stand for it. We’ve learned a new way. We feel, we feel good about it, but man, is it hot, hard or tough to hang out with friends, family, church, family who advocates for it. And they advocate hard.


And a lot of times that’s where I’d say most of my most, you know, most active bonfire members are, right? Like, you know, most of them who are active in the membership program, that is where their biggest pain point is, is because they freeze up and they get really uncomfortable when they’re at a family function. Or if they’re at a church gathering or, you know, we have families who husbands are lead pastors or, or like worship band directors. Right. And they have to have all five of their kids at church three nights a week, or like, whatever it may be.


And they’re over here really like wanting to practice compassionate, discipline and see things through. But they’ve got a lot of eyeballs on them, but it’s like, heck no, just take the kid out back and give them a good spanking. That’s the way you honor God, that’s the way you teach healthy obedience. So, so does that make sense, families? I want you to know that this is for everybody. So I hope that you will just continue listening. And I hope that you will be really, really blessed by this conversation. But the fact is, is that research shows that seven out of 10 adults still think that spanking is an appropriate way to discipline, right? So we want to really make space for this conversation and help you understand why we advocate that it’s like, there’s just so many options.


We teach so much here at fresh start family about compassionate discipline. We teach specifically like how do you build a compassionate discipline toolkit, but there’s just so many different options. So a few years back, I found you Tanya on Instagram. And when I found your account, I was instantly drawn to you. And the way that you were showing up to encourage parents and to speak life and just inspiration without judgment, just I could tell it just exuded from your account, from your voice. I loved your clothing line too, that you have, you know, just realized that I feel like we have a lot in common and we have a similar heart to want to serve and support and help families.

Wendy:
So take a minute to tell our listeners a little bit more about you, your kids, your family, where you live, what you’re up to these days, all that stuff

Tanya:
Sounds good. I’m so honored to be here. And I remember that day so vividly when you slipped into my DMS and I was actually talking, I had gotten a question about this exact topic, and that was the story that you happen to see. And I remember I would hold back from talking about this topic. And that was one of the first times that I ever addressed it in the comment box on my stories. And you popped in, and it was really comforting. It was so comforting because I was so nervous and because I, I never want to be misunderstood. And I think that that’s so easily, that can so easily be done in the online space. And so I remember you popping in to my DMS and I was like, wow, this is from the Lord.


This is the comfort. Like he kind of sent you there to comfort me in being bold and speaking about this. And so I’m just so thankful for this opportunity to be here with you. So I am Tanya Camps, like Wendy said, I am a wife, mother. I have a six year old daughter and a one and a half step one and a half year old stepdaughter. And I am in love with Jesus. And I think that’s, what’s connected us so much in this space. And so I’m really passionate about gentle, respectful, conscious, connected, right? Like we have so many names for it now, but really just parenting in general and supporting families on their journey. Because I believe that this is such generational work.


Like this is the most important work I believe that we do on this earth, right? Because it’s not just what’s happening in our household. Like this impacts generations. And we see it so much with how parents are having to heal from their own childhoods. You know? And I talk so often with my husband about imagine in 20 years with all of these families that are doing things differently, like the world is going to be a different place and this is how we get to impact the world. And so I’m just so wild about it. And like you were saying before, I love empowering families to make choices that they feel good about, right? Like, I don’t want you to come to my page or have a conversation with me and I want you to leave better. I want you to feel good about these choices and something else that you said that I just, I want to touch on.


Cause it does, in case we can’t come back to it. I know this supposed to be my intro. But one thing you said about the people that you work with, the most active thing that you hear in the bonfire is about people feeling judged for maybe family members or circles they’re in. And that is, that’s something that I hear so often. And that’s why I think these conversations are important because we are empowering them to dig their feet and draw a line in the sand and say, this is my belief. And nothing will shake me, you know? And that’s what I really want for families. I want them to feel so firm their beliefs, that it’s okay. If someone doesn’t agree, you know, that they, they won’t be swayed. And so I’m back to what I’m doing these days.


I have an apparel line, love encouraging families, and also I am finishing up my certification to be a baby led wellbeing, a sleep specialist. And so I’m so excited about that because I feel like I’m going to get to empower and work with families when they’re in this really desperate time of their life, of needing sleep. But it has such a holistic approach that I get to speak into the parent child relationship at length. And so really excited about that.


Well, Hey there, families, I want to take a few minutes to tell you about the incredible free resources. My friends over at connected families have created for you in case you don’t know about connected families, they are a nonprofit ministry that cares for inspires and equips parents to receive and pass on God’s grace and truth by imparting a biblical memorable transformational framework for parenting. Their teachings are a special combination of professional and personal experience, biblical foundations and fused by God’s grace and truth and a solid science-based and trauma informed approach to everything they do.


They use those three important ingredients to teach parents a simple, yet effective connected families framework, which is foundation course, coach connect. And correct. If you’re curious to learn more about how connected families can help you as a parent, I recommend heading to their website and starting on their resources page. They have a bunch of free downloads that are a great place to start, including their consequences at work free ebook, and also one called helping kids with anger as well as another called perspectives on spanking. So start by downloading one of their no-cost resources. And then while you’re there consider grabbing their book, discipline that connects with your child’s heart.


It is one that I believe should be on every family’s bookshelf. And one that you’ll refer back to over and over again, during the many stages of your children’s lives. So go find all of their great resources at connectedfamilies.org. Okay. Back to the show.

Wendy:

Let’s get into the subject matter today. And let’s talk a little bit about what we want to do instead of specifically spanking. So instead, we’re going to encourage you today to use a compassionate discipline discipline means to teach, think disciple, exercise, empathy, and understanding, and then show your kiddo the right behavior, self calming time ins natural consequences, logical consequences.


Number two, try focusing on connection. Connection creates cooperation. The more you nurture the relationship with your children through meaningful connection, the more they will want to work with you versus against you. And let’s before you even go on, let’s just go back to the first one, Tanya, and let’s riff a little bit on just the idea of compassionate discipline versus punishment. What comes to your mind?

Tanya:
So the main thing that comes to my mind is that we have this paradigm that we have to make our children feel bad in order for them to do better, right. Even when it comes to natural and logical consequences, which we can get in and kind of differentiate between those two, but I’ve even had families that have asked me, well, what does, what if your child doesn’t care about the natural consequences? And that’s the thing we’re looking for an emotional reaction. And we think that the emotional reaction means that there was a learning experience and that’s just not true. Right? I think we look at what we know about children. They are soaking up everything all the time, right? So we don’t need an emotional response in order to believe that there was a lesson learned.


There also, I’ve just looked into so much of what happens when we have this flooding of an emotional response, right? Emotions are good and it’s good to release them, but it’s not exactly the best time to learn in that moment because your nervous system is being flooded with emotions and hormones and all of that. So that’s not the best time to want to teach a lesson. And so I think that’s the main thing, understanding that we don’t have to make them feel bad. We don’t need to see an emotional response. You know, we look at natural and logical consequences. And so I want to talk to safety first because I feel like so often I hear from families. Well, what about when my child runs in the road, they have to know. And the thing is that safety falls on you.


Safety falls on you. If you know that you’re heading towards the road, you need to grab that hand and hold that boundary because safety is the job of the parent, right? We shouldn’t put that responsibility on our child, right. But now if the child is at the playground and they continue to run towards the road, right? The logical consequence is it’s time to leave the park. You don’t have to be, it doesn’t have to be a huge fuss. We can hold the boundary. It’s time to leave the park. Now I know you’re upset about it. We can’t run towards the road. It’s my job to keep you safe. And we leave the park, right. That consistency in the boundary. And so I just think it’s so important to equip parents with these tools that they know, okay, wait.


So if I’m not going to use this harsh discipline, what else can I do? And so much of it is, and keeping your word, holding that boundary and allowing life to play out a natural consequence that always happens with my daughter is it’s cold outside. She doesn’t want to put on her jacket. She doesn’t want to put it on. And I’ve really had to talk to my husband about this because he’s, he’s like, but it’s cold. And I’m like, she’ll figure it out. She’ll walk outside and she’ll figure it out. And the natural consequences, she’s cold. She puts it on. And I don’t need to say, I told you so from the learning experience, but like,

Wendy:
Because that that’ll get in the way when you say, “I told you, so..”

Tanya:
It’s like pride. Exactly. The pride rises up, but life is going to serve so many natural consequences. And I think that’s how we can best equip them.

Wendy:
Yes. Yeah. The whole discipline thing, when it comes to natural consequences and logical consequences, really guys, the sky is the limit, right? Like there is just so much you can do to teach. I have a file that I show in my free compassionate discipline workshop. I’ll make sure I put the link in the show notes, but it’s huge. And it’s from the last 10 years of teaching through logical consequences, this just really is I think families get stuck when they’re like, but what do you do? Right? Like you just have to step into learning and really learn what your options are. But I thought this might be a good opportunity to read one of the questions here that came in Tanya. And I’ll, I’ll just kinda read through this because you answered it so eloquently and beautifully, but mom went in, she said, I’m really curious, what’s your suggestion.


And you just alluded to this, but she said it so well, what you’re suggesting would be for teaching my child to not run into the road, to think safety issues. So far, I’ve been approaching this as these safety scenarios. A spanking is a means of grace to prevent her from further harm. Another example, swatting her hand, which is like a different version of spanking, right? To prevent her from touching a hot stove. Really want your input all for the gentle parenting, but not sure how to not warrant spanking in these scenarios. So you answered Tanya. You said, this is such a great question. I’m so happy you asked. I think the first thing to do here is shift the perspective of how do I teach my child to stop doing this to how can I teach my child about street safety?


How can I teach my child about hot surfaces? It makes a big difference. When we look at this, through this lens, spanking or swatting, doesn’t actually teach the skill. It just says, don’t do this. Remember your kiddo, shouldn’t already know this. They are learning. So you may have to teach them for a while and that’s okay. It’s not disobedience. It just takes time to learn things, right? Like just like riding a bike. So get creative and be consistent. Every time you’re near a road, take the opportunity to teach, make up a song, hold hands in the road. Always E even if there are no cars around, talk about how fast the cars are driving by and the importance of waiting.


So we keep ourselves safe, make it a fun game to look back and forth and then say, is it safe for us to walk now letting them choose right. Using every opportunity as another moment to teach and expand her understanding. The same thing goes for the stove. This red color on the stove means hot. It can hurt our skin and it just goes on and on. But I love that, that example of like you shifting the focus on what you’re telling them to stop doing versus what life skill are you teaching. And wouldn’t you agree, Tanya, that when it comes to inflicting pain or harm on a child, it’s always going to be based on a past mistake, have to stop doing that this is the penalty of sin. This is the penalty that you’re going to pay versus like, Hey, I’m going to teach you the life skill.

Tanya:
Yeah. And that’s just that’s who he is. That’s who Jesus is. Right. He’s always teaching us for the future. He’s never having us look back. Right. He’s picking us up and he’s saying, let me show you, let me show you. And so that is just where I see the character of Christ so deeply in this work.

Wendy:
Yes. Yeah. And then also understanding that when kids are in power, certain stages of life, especially right, like two to six, 12 to six 18, let’s say like, it is a natural developmental appropriate thing for them to want power for them to want to feel powerful. And a lot of times when parents understand that that’s just a power struggle, it doesn’t mean that your child is blatantly disobeying you. It just means that they’re seeking to feel powerful. And when you are equipped and empowered as a parent to understand how you can help them feel powerful and keep the from limits, then you’re aiding in their development. And you’re also keeping your from limit.


And by you asking like the example we just gave of when you kind of coach that, that sweet mama, you said, you know, you, you look both ways and then you ask your child, is it safe to cross now? Like that this isn’t a practice scenario, but that’s what empowerment looks like. Right. And the more we know, the more you feed in and pour into your children’s power buckets, the less they’ll push back because their need to feel powerful is, is filled up. So

Tanya:
Exactly. Yes. So good.

Wendy:
Okay. Well talk to us about connection.

Tanya:
Yeah. So I just always think of the parent child relationship and how we are getting to know our children, right? Like they are unique beings with different temperaments personalities, and they’re also getting to know us. And so spending that time with eye contact, to like they love, they, they love spending as much time with us as we love spending with them. And so they need that connection. It is a true need. And so spending that time building up the relationships so that there can be trust there. And that’s a huge one, right. Building up that trust that I can trust mom when she’s telling me that something’s not safe. And that’s because on the backend, that relationship has been poured into and has been nurtured.


And it just makes me think of our relationships as adults. Right. I always try to compare it because I think that it can be helpful when we’re thinking about relationships as adults. And if I were to come home from work and tell my husband that something that happened at work and I was really upset about it, maybe I even did something that wasn’t, I didn’t do a process correctly. And I came home and he just kind of pushed me away, shoved me away. I wouldn’t that a connecting building opportunity. And I wouldn’t seek him again, most likely. Right. Like when we talk about having your child run to you, instead of away from you, that’s all built on the connection that you’ve already poured in with them.


Right. And so knowing that they can trust you knowing that you’re a safe place. And we, we want to cooperate when we have good connection with people we want to, we respect them. That’s the other thing we think that respect should just be automatically given because we’re older and we’re bigger and we’re the adults, but it’s built up through connection that is literally the bridge for all of these things and parenting that we want. And we require that we want to obedience. We want respect, but connection is the bridge to get us there. And so I think also our kids that time that we spend with them, they see it, they see it, especially as they start to get older, it, it’s not just a moment for them.


Right. Sometimes we can be so busy and we’re like, okay, well, let me go over here and do this, but it means everything to them. And so it’s just building up that relationship.

Wendy:
Yes. I so agree. I, there was a me, myself, once that was so beautiful and is like, when my kids make a mistake instead of, oh shit, my mom’s going to kill me. I want them to think, oh shit, I need to call my mom.

Tanya:
Yeah, exactly.

Wendy:
And that, like that connection, it, it really is the base. Right. And it, and it doesn’t end. It doesn’t just come in the, like, I’m going to sit down on the ground and play with you. Now. It actually comes in the Mo the worst moments. Right? Like talk to us a little bit about that, Tanya. Like that’s actually, to me where the biggest, like when Stella or Terrin has, like, we’ve had some misbehaviors that we had to work through and what was to, I have a lot of stories about Stella. So those just come to my mind of the times when we’ve had to work through like some pretty significant logical consequences. And again, logical consequences for us is like learning activities, conversations.


I am statements, redos, makeups. Role-plays like all these things, but we’ve 90. No, I’m going to, I’m going to say a hundred percent of the time we come out with a strengthened relationship where we are so close after a mistake and a repair has been done, but it feels like it is stronger. Like it reminds me of like strength training, right? Like building muscle. They, I’m pretty sure I’m not an expert in this, but I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that in order to grow muscles, to be bigger, there’s like actually tiny little strains that happen. And then when that heals, they become stronger. And that’s what makes a muscle bigger.


But talk to us, what’s your thoughts on how the, the crappy moment when we choose to, to discipline through respect and connection and compassionate discipline versus fear, force, and pain, how it builds connection and like those worst moments?

Tanya:
Oh, definitely. So I think that many parents could relate to this. So I’m going to share this. I remember there was a night, I was doing stuff around the kitchen and my daughter was playing, playing, and I kept telling her, please don’t ride the scooter in the house. And so I told her three times and I, I put the scooter away. Right. That was a logical consequence. So then she’s kind of hopping around and she knocked over the dog’s water bowl. And I just, oh, I want it to get fresh. I was frustrated. I wanted to handle it differently, but I got down and I said, she was really upset. And I said, it’s okay that this fell over. Let’s clean it up together. So we cleaned it up together. We cleaned it up together. And she, I didn’t say much about it because I was getting myself under control.


Right. It’s about us too. And so she apologized a few minutes later and I thought, wow, she came to that on her own because of these other instances that we had. How about, about an hour later, I knocked over the water bowl.

Wendy:
Yeah.

Tanya:
She came to me and she helped me. And she said, mom, it’s okay that you knocked over the water bowl. And we cleaned it up again together. And so I see these patterns of how the connection and these opportunities, it’s just deepening our relationship. And not only that, there were so many things that happened in that occurrence, right. Because I didn’t blow up and make it about something else sent her to her room. We were able to clean it up, to get their teamwork, right. Team building. We were able to, she came to saying, sorry, on her own. I didn’t have to say apologize and say this. And now go off, you know, in isolation, she came to it on her own understanding. And it’s because there’s a respect and a trust that’s really built there.


And so sometimes it’s going to look messy. Sometimes you’re going to be so frustrated. You’re gonna have to take some deep breaths. You might be on the verge of losing your cool, but there’s always an opportunity. And I came out of that with such a perspective and beauty that, wow. She ministered to me when I dropped that water also. And so I think that’s just continuing to build on how, how deep the relationship can go. I hope that answers it.

Wendy:
No, it does. And it’s just so beauty beautiful because isn’t that like? So the way Jesus teaches us, right? Like he just checks our heart when we are needing to discipline our teach. It’s like, it reminds me of where Jesus, he’s like, everyone’s like stoning this woman. And he’s like, okay, well, everyone’s like, okay, who’s going to go first essentially. And he’s like, well, let any of you, who is without sin, be the first to throw a stone at her. And basically everyone just walks away because that’s what I feel like. That’s what we have to keep in mind when we’re disciplining. Like really?


I’m going to think about inflicting pain on this human being when I, I might walk away and do the same thing three hours later, like I got like, just not it’s, we’re human, right? Like we’re human. And the connection side of things just really guides us so much more than any other, any other part of it. Okay. So let’s talk about respect for a little bit and talk about taking it back to the golden rule, treat others how you want to be treated your child, no matter how old is worthy of respect, parent, like a coach instead of a boss.

Tanya:
So I just, I completely agree with all of those statements. And I think if this hierarchy mindset that we have, that we are a dominating figure over our children. And so they are less than even though we may not feel that way really. Like, we all love our children, but subconsciously that’s how we’re operating. Right. And they may not be seen in society. And that this is definitely true as worthy of as much respect. And so shifting that paradigm of like, wow, you are just as worthy, right? Like I see our children as our closest neighbor. And so I have an example of my daughter the other day, I said, are you ready to eat lunch? And the thing is that lunch was already ready.


Right. So I shouldn’t have asked her. And she, I said, are you ready to eat lunch? And she said, no. And I said, well, lunch is ready. I need you to come to the table. And she said, well, why did you ask me about mom? And I thought, wow, that is a respect thing. You know? And that’s, that’s like one of those ones we can really miss, but that’s a respect thing. Why did I ask if I was going to have her come to the table, regardless, because I’m not going to respect her answer. And I think so often we can do that. Are you ready to leave the park? No. Well, why do we ask? Right. And so that’s where those kind boundaries and limits come in so that we can be a respectful parent while also being the parent. And so I always, when families will come to me about Sonic limits or boundaries, I ask them first, are you consistent with your boundaries?


Because your child wants to feel like they can trust you and that you respect them. But if you’re constantly swaying, it’s going to be really hard for them to feel respected or for them to trust that you can keep your word.

Wendy:
Ah, so good. And you just, yeah. And you just like pulled it and respect and the firm and time limits and boundaries and no one, which is so perfect. Okay, Tanya, and let’s talk about why spanking is just counterproductive to compassionate discipline.

Tanya:
So I always like to be the goal mindset, right? Like, are we seeking fear-based obedience or are we seeking character building behavior and our children? And so punishment Spanking, these timeouts harsh consequences would fall in this fear-based obedience, right? It creates the fear in the child of the parent. And also are we actually building up tools to not let that behavior happen again? It’s like we are teaching them that this certain behavior, I don’t do it because then I might get a spanking or I will be harmed or sent away to my room. And I don’t want that. Whereas character building behavior comes in with all the tools to actually get to the root of the behavior.


And what’s happening to build a toolkit for our kids and have opportunity to teach them skills that they can take on into life with them. Right. So we don’t want our children to fear us. I know that if you ask any parent, they are not seeking fear-based obedience. That’s not what we want.

Wendy:
Yes. To be terrified, I’m your child, but I know our hearts don’t want that.

Tanya:
Exactly. Exactly. That’s not the overall goal. We really, we want self-disciplined human beings. That’s what we want our children to grow up into. And so building up their character is so important.

Wendy:
Yes. And really it’s like when we’re speaking specifically to spanking and some of the reasons, you know, we’re talking a lot in this episode about, you know, what we encourage you, why we encourage you to take a break from spanking and what we encourage you to do when we’re talking about compassionate, discipline and connection and respect and from a kind boundaries. But really like, I want to be clear about how I have seen spanking result in very negative behaviors that parents don’t want. But a lot of times it’s not talked about. So, you know, we have over 200 members now in our bonfire support program and we see it over and over again. How, when there’s been a past of spanking, a child often becomes really good at lying.


They become very good at hiding their mistakes. They often become aggressive, but when the parent is not there, so in their social group or with their brother and sister again, when mom and dad aren’t looking and often I believe it’s because they’re tying pain or aggression and violence to love. And it’s just a very confusing message,

Tanya:
A hundred percent. And I think sometimes we don’t realize the impact, the modeling behavior, how deep it goes, right? Like, yeah, they are little sponges. They are watching our every move. And only that they’re learning these experiences, right? Like they come in so fresh into all these new experiences, especially in the toddler years. And they are learning how to navigate those experiences and who are they learning from? They’re learning from us and the experiences that they personally have just like the story. And so I really love that. You mentioned that because I think it’s so, so powerful. And for us to, if we’re seeing behavior that we need to dig up in our child, we really need to look at ourselves. We really, really do, what are we doing in the home? You know, my daughter has been, actually had this discussion with my husband last night.


She has been complaining a lot and it is taking a toll on me. I just don’t have the bandwidth for it some days. And it just feels very negative to me. Right. So I was talking to my husband about it last night. And you know, we both work from home. My daughter is also homeschooled. And so she’s with us all the time. And so I can be a little bit of a complainer, but it’s in a joking way with my husband that he understands it, but she is picking this up from me. And I was like, whoa, I had a whole revelation last night. And it really got me in check. And so I know that that’s a different situation, but it’s in all aspects, we need to turn and look at ourselves where this behavior is coming from and then, and then align it with our values.

Wendy:
Yeah, it’s Tanya. So good. And then the lying and hiding it just again. I see it. I see it in the kids so much. And so I, and I know you do to help parents with this, like in order to have your kids stop lying to you and stop hiding from you really, like there needs to be a safety and discipline. Like as long as a child is fearing that there is going to be pain, shame, humiliation, inflicted, And inflicted upon him or her when he makes a mistake. Like there is just not going to be a comfortableness with learning from your mistake. Right. And that’s what you and I both teach is like mistakes are opportunities to learn and yes, yes.


Sometimes no, but you know, it’s like, it, it’s a journey to become more comfortable with mistakes. We teach this a lot in our freedom to be weekend course, but it’s like, but there’s always, there’s always an ability to learn. And the goal with kids is to teach them to make different decisions tomorrow, not to feel bad or shameful about the mistakes they made yesterday. It’s like, I made a mistake. I made a choice. We’re all human. We all sin. And tomorrow I have the ability to make another choice. But with when you bring shame into the picture or pain or humiliation, it becomes easier for, I believe the brain to take the route of lying and hiding versus taking responsibility and saying, okay, I made a mistake and tomorrow I’m going to make a different decision.


All right. So good. So let’s talk about how spanking degrades connection in the parent child relationship.

Tanya:
Definitely. So I know we’ve been talking about how important this relationship is, right? And so we always want to focus on building it up. We always want to focus on more connection. You can never have enough connection, right? Like you can never connect enough with your spouse. You can never connect enough with friends. And so when we use these tactics such as spanking and other harsh punishments, I like to think of a stick. And so that experience breaks the trust. And now there’s a gap there, right? And of course we can rupture and repair. I don’t want that to be missed in this discussion. Right. Especially if you’re coming, you’re wanting to make shifts and you’ve been using punishment in your home and you are thinking, whoa.


So now I have gaps in my connection. There is repair, right? Like we are human we’re on this journey. But if that continues all of these breaks, right. Just imagine those breaks and a long stick, it starts to chip away at the relationship. And so the opportunity to learn is kind of lost there. Right. And so I just think it’s so important to constantly have this mindset of where can I build connection? What can I ask myself right now? How can I connect in this situation? Why did this happen? What’s going on here, right. Instead of these, these experiences that just break it.

Wendy:
Yeah. When it comes to connection, I think like vulnerability and humility are huge in this situation. And really when you think of spanking or traditional punishment methods, it’s kind of the opposite of humility and vulnerability. So it’s kinda, this is what I believe kids see from it. They’re like, oh, okay, you’re going to hit me. Tell me what I did was wrong. Tell me that you love me. And it’s in love and it’s honoring God, but it’s still hurting me. But they they’re like, that means you are up here on a pedestal. Like, you must not make these mistakes. Something’s wrong with me. I’m broken. I make these mistakes. But you parent like, or as they get older, what happens I believe is that they look and they’re like, that’s total BS.


You do this all the time, but you never admit it, which is hypocrisy. Right. But when they’re little, it’s more like, wow, like you, you are up here. You never make mistakes. And I’m down here and I’m getting punishment and like all these things. But when a parent brings in humility and vulnerability, which is like, Hey, look, I get it. Like I stole when I was a kid.


Like I remember, like I tell my kids stories all the time when I was a kid or even nowadays like how I lost my cool or I was disrespectful to somewhat Starbucks, like in the barista barista. Or like, I try to find as many moments as I can to teach my kids. Especially when we’re disciplining, Hey, look, it’s just a mistake. We all make mistakes. Like I remember when I was a kid and I, you know, I got in trouble once because I rolled my eyes at my mom or my dad and I were having an argument when I was a teenager over this. And like, it makes sense. Like it, everybody makes mistakes like it.


Yes. Like, and this is, we get to do it differently. Now. Like we’re here, we’re together, right? You’re, you’re not, you’re not in trouble. We just got to figure out how to do this differently. Next time. I’ve, I’ve been in your shoes before. You’re a normal kid. Kids make mistakes. I made the same mistakes when I was little or I made different mistakes, but we all make mistakes. And now we just need to do some type of activity. Like again, we have so many options for parents when they’re learning compassionate, discipline, natural consequences, logical consequences, self-regulation stuff. But we are going to learn how to do this differently, but you’re not alone. I’m here with you and, and we’re together.


So let’s talk about how spanking degrades respect in the home and in the relationship, Tanya,

Tanya:
You know, so often we hear about how do we really respect and see our children worthy of respect if we’re using this traditional punishment such as spanking. Right? But I kind of want to look at it from the lens of when we use these kinds of tactics, our child can begin to not have respect for us as the parent, right? Like we lose the, the reverence there. I’ve actually spoken to adults that were spanked as children. And they said, you know, I started to lose respect for my parents because things weren’t lining up. I was very confused as a child by the messaging that you love me, but you’re hurting me.


You’re inflicting harm on me and that’s how our children receive it. Right. So looking through that lens and as a result, they start to lose respect for us. And we, we don’t want that because then there it goes, it starts to break down the relationship. Right. We, we have to also understand that respect is not just given because we’re a parent, right? It’s something that we have to really hold sacred and say, wow, am I operating in this relationship where I’m also worthy of respect, is my behavior showing that my child should respect me? Do I keep my word? And my honest are things aligning, do my actions align with what I’m sharing with my child. And so I really like to look at that lens also because I know we want respect as parents, but we have to look, are we making sure that we’re behaving in a way that respect should be honored?

Wendy:
Yes, it’s so true. And this is where the idea of like hypocrisy can create creep in really fast. And I just have such a passion in my life to uncover where I am a hypocrite, because we’re all human. Right. And to then parent in a way where I’m not being hypocritical. And I’m telling you, like, when we are like, when we are using harsh punishments and indefinitely of inflicting pain on our children, to me, it’s just like, man, you better be a hundred percent not doing that same thing or else it’s hypocritical, it’s hypocritical. Right. And I’m telling you like nine out of 10 times, if I’m needing to teach my child a lesson or discipline around something, I can bring it back to where I’ve either modeled it or I’m doing it in my own life.


So many times, like I do not have perfection around the areas that my child is learning. That’s I, I believe that, you know, one of my favorite podcasts that we’ve recorded here is how are our kids are often our greatest teachers. Oh yeah. But like so many times, if, if I’m really being hard on them for something, then I’m usually pretty hard on myself for it. And oftentimes if I’m needing to discipline them on something, I’m able to view to see where I need to learn the same lesson. And they’ve just brought light to it that we’re, we’re learning it together. But that’s where that, that scripture where, you know, John eight, seven, where Jesus talks about like, everyone’s like, okay, you know, stoning this woman.


And he’s like, like you have that one week we discussed. It’s like, who has never thrown? Who has never sinned? Like you throw the first stone. And I just think you have to be really extra full of care if you’re choosing to place hands on someone, because it’s just a very clear area for me, how hypocrisy can come out. Does that resonate with you at all?

Tanya:
Yes, it definitely does. Especially as our children begin to grow and see that this is not the norm in relationships, right? Why is this isolated to the parent child relationship? And so I think that we can get into a bit of a tough situation when our kids start getting a little older and asking certain questions and seeing that this is not, this is not the norm in my friendships. This is not the norm in marriages and things like that. And so why is it isolated to this relationship that should be, we’ve talked about how important it is and it should be the safest it’s the parent-child relationship is the gold standard for relationships for our children as they go into life. Right. It should be, it should be the gold standard.

Wendy:
Okay. Let’s talk about how spanking degrades boundaries for our kids and ourselves.

Tanya:
So, you know, the thing that comes to mind, this really makes me think about consent, right? And how we’re teaching our children about consent and consent boundaries. But I like to ask questions. And so I’m going to put this in the form of a question, because it really helps me to evaluate, like, we have to think about what we think about these concepts, but how can we teach our children that it’s never okay to allow someone to harm them, but in the most sacred relationship with us, we harm them right. Through spanking and putting our hands on their body when we’re teaching them that you don’t allow others to do that to you. Right? And so when we cross this boundary, we lose these opportunities to set the standard and to model proper behavior.


You know, my husband always says that what really clicked for him as far as how we have boundaries with our children are when we have politicians or people in authority who don’t follow by the same rules that are imposed on the rest of us, we call them hypocrites. Yeah. So why are parents any different, right?

Wendy:
Yes. Gosh, the idea of consent, man, we could, we could have a whole nother episode on that week. If you guys want to learn more about consent, we have an episode with Rosella, Rosalia Rivera. I’m all about consent and it’s just really, really powerful.

Well, Hey there families, I am pausing this episode to invite you to the free online workshop that I’m teaching this month. All about disciplining with compassion, connection and firm kindness. You can save your seat by heading to freshstartfamilyonline.com/discipline. I will tell you all about the dates and the times that I am offering for you to attend this free one hour class with me.


But when you come and hang out for an hour, you will learn three steps to building a strong, compassionate, kind and firm discipline toolkit that works with kids of all ages. You guys, this was a life-changing for me when I truly and fully how I could take a break from the punishment mindset, that kind of misbelief of like where the heck did we get the idea that in order to make our kids behave better, we must make first, make them feel worse, such an odd cultural norm. But so much of traditional punishment is kind of based in that mentality that kids have to pay the price well with compassionate discipline, it looks a lot different. So once you embrace a compassionate discipline mindset and you have creative, effective tools at your fingertips to really teach kids important life skills, it will change everything for you in your parenting walk.


So head on over to freshstartfamilyonline.com/discipline to find out the dates and times, and to save your seat. I cannot wait to serve you and empower you through this one hour free class. I will see you there.

Wendy:

Okay. So let’s pull up some of the questions that your community has asked you, Tanya, I just love the community that you have built and curated, you know, over on Instagram, I know you’re, you’re now building an another incredible community for your sleep work. But I just think you have a lot of families who love the Lord, who are really want to be intentional about making sure that they are disciplined in a way that honors Jesus, that that is in line with scripture.


So I thought, could we just read some of these questions that came up?

Tanya:
Of course. Thank you so much.

Wendy:
Yeah. Okay. All right. So the first question came in and said, I love this, but I believe that punishment is needed, but it does not have to be physical. There are many other ways to teach your children a lesson, understanding in place of physical punishment.

Tanya:
This is so common, right? And it’s this misunderstanding between discipline and punishment. Cause I actually think that this, this parent was on the right track. Right. But she has a misunderstanding of the language. And so, yes, we definitely need discipline. We all need discipline. We need to discipline our children. But when they’re used interchangeably, there is a huge gap, right? So punishment says you must pay for your mistakes. Whereas discipline says, I want to teach you for the future. I think I want to come alongside you think discipleship. And so when we make that correlation, it really clears things up about what we’re doing with our child, you know,

Wendy:
So good. Okay. Here’s another one. Tanya, where do you stand with biblical references that mentioned the rod with disciplining

Tanya:
What’s usually referenced is “whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.” Right. And I love this verse. I feel like it gives us so much insight. So I really want to bring it down the rod. Let’s just go back to what the rod even was. It was used by the shepherds to guide and direct the sheep. It was also used to protect the sheep and keep them safe from predators. And so if we, like, we already said that discipline is to teach and we’re thinking discipleship to raise up self-disciplined humans. That’s the goal. Then if you spare guiding and protecting your children, I would think that you hate them, right?


Like that is our role as parents because we care about them. And how we show that we care about them is by leading, guiding and creating a safe place for them, like the shepherd was doing for his sheep, with the rod. And so, yes, we need to be careful to discipline them. Yes, we need to raise them up and build their character. And I always point back to, we have to look at Christ. How does Christ discipline us? And I, I reflect on that probably daily. When I am making parenting choices, this isn’t a one and done, this is everyday. How am I going to choose to parent? How am I going to choose to discipline?

Wendy:
Yes. And it’s so important. Cause because this phrase gets dropped so much to understand that spoil a child, isn’t actually in the Bible.

Tanya:
Yes.

Wendy:
So the shepherd, as we’ve said over and over again, use the rod to lead and guide the sheep and to protect them from predators. So when you really soak into that, and again, you and I always love advocating for Jesus, the gentle parent book by LNS, she’s the best lexicon at the back that takes the Greek and Hebrew words and like shows you the English translation. And that is, I mean, I love that book for a million reasons, but that’s one of my favorite parts of it is it really like teaches you how to take some of these verbiages. And what’s actually used in scripture and she just breaks it all down. It’s so good.

Tanya:
And I always want to encourage parents like go like the fact that spare the rod spoil the child has been passed down. And so many believers think that it’s actually in the Bible, like go and look at the scripture, go break down the word. Like you will feel so empowered as a parent when you do this.

Wendy:
Yes. And I always recommend, I have, my book is, I mean, my Bible is called life application Bible. I don’t know if it is so good. It has like a little breakdown in the bottom of each one. It’s it’s on our first short family shop page. It’s like the one I recommend, but okay. Speaking of the sheep, I just want to bring up this question. Cause I’ve gotten this question in an email. We just talked about this in our episode with connected families last week, but someone had asked you like, have you also heard of the shepherd breaking the legs of the way were sheep sheep that were rebellious would sometimes have their leg broken by the shepherd and were carried in his shoulders until healed. They became reacquainted to his voice and close to him again.


Literally when I read this, when I got this email before my stomach felt like it was going to turn inside out, I just had a visceral reaction to just like just the concept that this has been taught and advocated that this was a thing. And this is like, anyways, Talk to us about this, Tanya.

Tanya:
I have so compassion, especially for believers that are asking these questions because they want to do the right thing by the Lord and what they’ve been taught. And so there’s just this, you don’t know what you don’t know. Right. And so I always just feel so much compassion that like you want to do the right thing. And I’m so thankful that they asking these questions, but I just was really encouraging the person that asked that question to really dig deeper into that. And there’s no biblical reference to a shepherd and breaking a sheep’s legs. And in my research, many theologians actually believe it to be a myth that was passed down through the church. But also there may have been shepherds that did that, that that’s what they did in their time as a shepherd.


And they believe to be okay, but it’s not a biblical reference. And just because the shepherd ma ma one shepherd might’ve done that doesn’t mean that that’s our model. Right?

Wendy:
Yep. Exactly. Awesome. Okay. Here’s another one someone wrote in that says, thanks so much for sharing your insights. Tanya, I’ll have to process through why it worked so well for me as a child, I’m actually glad my parents spanked us and I have an awesome relationship with them with no trauma whatsoever. They poured love and Christ over us. So maybe that is why question mark thoughts for myself to ponder as a parent. I loved her tone here because you can tell she’s really like looking at this and examining it, right? Like, and then someone else chimed in and said sane my sister and I spank, we’re raised in a spanking home with parents who lovingly pointed to Jesus, but also held firm consequences for behavior.


I have no trauma and no negative issues with my parents, my husband and I read shepherding a child’s heart. We really encourage you to read a different book. You guys, by the way, we have many on our website and it was very formative on how and when we spank. So you tell us more, but I love just right away, you responded, like I love your openness. Like let’s, let’s talk about this, but talk to us a little bit about those type of questions.

Tanya:
Exactly. Like I, I also really like hearing people’s experiences that wow, what an amazing thing, that those choices that your parents made didn’t have a negative impact on you, right? Like praise God, that’s such a blessing. And so I want to make sure that that is that the fact that this person didn’t have that experience and they’re still just sharing and seeking is so important to me. And so I love the openness parenting is not cookie cutter. We all are so unique in the way that we are formed with our personalities and our experiences. And there are so many layers in the home, in the parent child relationship. Right. And so every child is different in how they respond. And I just always think of the example of a divorced home, right?


Like you have the one child that never wants to get married because they’re so harmed by that divorce and experience of their home being broken. And then you have the child who says, no, I want a marriage. And I want it to last forever. How would we have ever known how that would have manifested in those children? Right. So if there’s another way, why wouldn’t we go another way? The thing is it’s completely subjective. It’s completely subjective to the individual. And the same is how a child receives and proceeds punishment like spanking.

Wendy:
Yeah. Yep. And I think it’s like as a, as a certified life coach, it’s like, I just see over and over again, how people don’t like, nor, you know, before we find this work, before you get into therapy and healing work, most people don’t tie challenges they’re having in their life to like childhood experiences. And then once they realize like where it comes from, then they start to understand why they have struggles with using their voice, standing up for themselves, being really triggered and yelling at their kids or feeling like they, they can’t keep their cool.


If a child is having a meltdown and they like all, there’s just all these behaviors, we call them protection behaviors or closed behaviors and in our life coaching world. But it’s like, they just may think that they’re human, right? Like, cause that is a human condition to have relationship, you know, normal relationship things are or moments where you just like, there’s just so many things. But I think when people start to get into a healing type of environment and you start to unravel some of the behaviors or really Tanya, what I see the most often is it’s the thought patterns that gets in our way of having healthy relationships with our children and our spouse. Often we will see and uncover that if you had a strong amount of fear as a child, that there are repercussions to that.


And I totally respect when someone says I have no trauma, no problems in my life. Like maybe there really are people out there that have no problems in their life. They’re just like, I wake up every day. I like, I go to the grocery store, I go to work. I don’t get angry at everybody. I don’t like, I don’t snap at my spouse. I don’t, I’m not triggered. I’ll yell. Like, I’m just feel like I’m totally in control. I know how to use my voice. I stand up for what I believe in. I like know how to handle conflict in a healthy way. I don’t have anxiety. I don’t suffer. Like maybe there really are people out there. And like you said, praise God for that. So

Tanya:
We know that that’s not the majority.

Wendy:
Right, right, right.

Tanya:
Here again, when we start getting into looking at the scripture, we have to have that understanding of the difference between punishment and discipline. Again, punishment pay for your mistakes. Look, we’re looking back when we focus on punishment, right? Discipline, we are really looking to the future. And so again, we have to challenge the perspective of discipline versus punishment and challenge what the rod actually is. And I always am pointing people to look at Galatians 5 22 through 23, right. Looking at the fruit of the spirit. And it’s hard to reconcile ever putting hands on another person, child, or adult being done in kindness or gentleness, like really try to reconcile that within your heart.


Right? Like there’s no condemnation here, reconcile it and, and think about it. And, and I also am thinking, we live under the new co the covenant of the new Testament and Jesus is our example. So sometimes we can get really caught up and the, in these definitions and all of that, but we need to look to Christ and, and ask him, ask him, like, take it to your prayer closet and ask him, you know, I think that that’s so important.

Wendy:
Yep. And I think the idea of a new covenant is like so important. Right. And I know LR knows talks about this. And Jesus, the gentle parent is like, you know, the old Testament is so full of like, you know, those, those punishments tile stories. Right. And I think it’s so beautiful to look at how God realized and recognized that it wasn’t working to bring his, his children to him. And so it took Jesus. It took completely doing it differently. It took humility and sacrifice and just, it’s just a completely new covenant. Right? The new Testament is a completely new covenant.


It’s old Testament is absolutely like, it is important. And again, when you break down these scriptures, you’re going to see when you take it, like you have your prayer closet and you like, when you take it and look at it, it’s like, you’ll, you’ll find the understanding and also just be rooted in the idea that Jesus is our example.

Tanya:
Yes. And I, and I really believe that, that this respectful, gentle, conscious, whatever we want to call it, parenting is so aligned with the character of Christ. Right. Like, and I, and I want to see believers feeling confident in that and like spearheading this movement, like that is really like, we are the light and like we, and you know, and that’s why we’re having this discussion. Right. So that we can get information out there to get believers more, to get them thinking about these concepts and to see where they, they fall. But we can, we should be spearheading this movement. I feel so passionate about that.

Wendy:
Yes. And, and, and that confidence, right? That confidence, when you hear a healthy discussion around this, that’s respectful and full of light. I’m just so I’m so, so thankful that we get to have this conversation today. Okay. Here’s another question that came in gentle parenting can include spanking. There is a difference between reacting in anger and hitting your child in that anger and positively reinforcing that constant consequences come from disobedience. You’re speaking as a spanking is child abuse. And it certainly is not. I did not get that tone from your beautiful reel that you shared that day. And again, everyone has a different interpretation. So, but talk to us about this idea that again, is taught over and over again in Christian circles that in order this, and you heard this before with the question of like, you just not have to know how to spank, you have to do it in a calm time, which creeps me out even more than like, I can’t imagine if my dad was like, and, and, and the gentle Jesus, the gentle parent book LR knows, tells the most beautiful story is that, I mean, that’s story.

Tanya:
I mean, I, I remember where I was when I read it, I was on an airplane traveling and I just, I was weeping. I was reading, I know exactly the story you’re talking about. Yes. I know exactly the story. So guys, you need to read parents, read that book, please. It will make your life.

Wendy:
That’s like, holy spirit, right there. Just,

Tanya:
Yes. So I think that we, when I hear this message, I see so much emphasis on how the parent feels, right? Like the parent can not sh you shouldn’t be angry. You shouldn’t react in anger, but how has our child receiving it no matter what, right. Pain is pain, inflicting harm is inflicting harm. Fear is fear. And if we have all those elements, no matter how you do it, your child is receiving that. And so I never really hear the messaging about, well, what’s happening emotionally and within the child on the receiving end of this, regardless of the parent’s heart in it, right? Like it is what it is, no matter the position and posture of your heart.


And so that’s always been really confusing for me because I know we talked about in the very beginning of this episode, that it’s to advocate for the child. So we have to be taking our child into account here and looking at what is this doing to them? What’s the emotional response, regardless if I’m calm or if I’m angry.

Wendy:
Yes, it’s so true. And the point, and really one of the key things I think we want to drive home is yes, there are consequences, there’s consequences, but the idea that hitting and hurting a child in a calm time makes the spanking, okay. We are here to advocate that that is absolutely not true and not the case. And like you said, the child is still terrified and experiencing physical pain, humiliation, and shame. And then being told that it’s in the name of love and God, and it just, we really want to encourage you that you do not have to do it that way. And you can learn how to have boundaries and natural logical consequences that you, you can teach in a calm time.


So I know that’s just like, I was really excited to speak to that because it’s just such a common thing that really jacks parents up. And to me, it’s, it’s even more detrimental to a child because talk about breaking respect and connection. Like you think you can trust your father or your mother, and you’re like getting ready for bed. And then all of a sudden it’s like, whoa, it comes out of left field. It it’s almost like, so anyways. Okay. Last one. And then I want to read one, one more. That was so beautiful just to wrap this up. So, okay. Someone said I’m all for natural consequences and spank sparingly, because I think it can be a slippery slope, but some misbehavior does not have immediate natural consequences.


For example, if my three-year-old refuses to let me put her socks on and shoes, multiple times I’ve warned her, it was going to happen. I asked her calmly to listen. I give her a minute to finish what she was doing. I told her sternly to listen, basically given her every opportunity to listen. And she still doesn’t obey any suggestions for situations like this.

Tanya:
Yes. And I, I wanna, I want to speak to this in exactly what I do and give some tools. So I personally have a two time rule that I hold myself to. I’m only going to ask twice and not in a fearful way, but because that’s what I need to do to hold myself accountable so that I do not exhaust my patients lose my cool, right. And then parent in a way that doesn’t align with my values and who I want to be as a mother. And so that’s always helpful for me. I have to hold myself to these boundaries. So I’m looking for a way to cooperate together. So I’m going to go into giving a choice. I’m going to ask twice, and then we’re gonna move on from there. I’m not going to continue to ask and ask and ask again.


And I’m going to go into getting a choice. Do you want to put your shoes on or do you want me to put your shoes on, right? Or we really have to get to this appointment. I’m going to put your shoes on. Now. I want to empower parents. You are the parent, right? So hold yourself accountable. And I’m going to put your shoes on. Now, this is what we’re going to do. And we’re going to leave. I want you to have that confidence when you’re speaking and communicating with your children. And then I might sing a song because we know that our children love play. They love play. If you want to get them to cooperate, get fun about it. Sometimes I can be so serious when I’m asking things of my daughter. And so I might sing a song about putting shoes on and keeping our feet safe in our shoes.


And I just want to keep a calm kind, but firm environment that this is the thing I know you don’t want to put your shoes on, but we got to them. We got to get to this appointment. So let me help you do that. And let’s get it rolling. Yeah. Right. Thinking is going to cause a, a whole emotional response there. It’s going to make a mess of something that we can just come alongside our children and help them to cooperate while also holding a boundary that I’m not going to ask you five times, so we’re not going to do the Merry go round thing.

Wendy:
Yep. Yep. It’s a great example of sticking to a firm limit and following through with consistency, right? We always say with toddlers are little ones, more actions, less words, but it’s like, yes, we’re going to follow through. We have so many resources for you, families. I mean, this to me is like a power struggle, right? Tanya and, and families. We have a free workshop, all about power struggles that you can come learn with me, save your seat, freshstartfamilyonline.com/powerstruggles. But I’ll teach you some actual strategies to use that rely on true power to influence your child, to actually do what you want them to do. Versus, you know, the external control, fear force, intimidation control, which spanking and threats of spanking spanking are.


They’re like the epitome of external control, right? But that’s actually not true. Power. You have only is going to work for you when there is a discrepancy in power, right? Like your child is a quarter of your size. They don’t have any money. They don’t have any power. It’s only going to work for you until, you know, once they hit 13, 14, 15 years old, there’s no power there. So it’s not true power. Like you’ve got to learn how to influence your children with true power. And then especially when they’re little, just follow through with consistency and from kindness. Okay. Tanya, let’s wrap it up with this beautiful comment that I thought we would just read from your community. And that just, I think kind of wraps everything up that we’ve been speaking about.


And then you, you can tell me what, what your thoughts are on it. But someone wrote in and said, I have to admit that spanking was something we used as a form of discipline with our children, perhaps for the simple fact that we didn’t know any better. And that’s how we were raised. I have to say that as a child, I didn’t really get spanked, but my mom did hit me with a shoe one time for passing curfew. That wasn’t the case for my brothers. However, they did get spanked, hit, et cetera. I can’t speak for my husband, but I’m sure he probably was as well. Looking back, I wish we would have known what we know now. And we would have done things a whole lot differently. Unfortunately, life doesn’t give us a do over or rewind and we have to live with our decisions.


Regrettably, sometimes we do or say what our parents did. Words can either give life or death, what power they do hold. Although sometimes I think a spanking is what a child needs. I have to say that I believe there is a better way to parenting. There has to be something better than some of the generational methods. Oh, how I wish I would had some of this information 30 years ago. I’m sorry. I hope my kids will be empowered since like so emotional to read. This is so beautiful. I hope my kids will be empowered to do better than we, when they become parents. There is a wealth of information to learn from seek it and use it.

Wendy:
Tanya. I think it’s great. You’re finding better, more positive reinforcement and discipline and sharing it with others to be great at one of the top toughest jobs anyone could ever have. And at the same time, the most rewarding, God bless everyone in a lifetime endeavor. So good.

Tanya:
Yeah. I don’t even, I mean, I’m crying, but I don’t even know how to add to that. Like what the gosh, that is, that is wisdom and in love. And just like looking at this, this mom that did things she would do, she would go back and do it differently. But seeing the compassion that she even has for herself, I think that that is so beautiful and with hope for the future generations. And I think that so much, it’s exactly what she said, the generational methods, right? Just yeah. Duping what we learned and that’s why I’m so passionate about this is generational work.


It is huge. And it goes down generations of generations. But another thing that I think about is, you know, I’ll have, I’ll have families tell me, well, I was spanked and I turned out fine. And so I know so often someone will say, well, did you, but I don’t really like to take that approach. Right? I don’t, we all have a time where this unfolding happens for us and, and when paradigms are to be shifted. But the thing is that with this information that we have with the research that’s been done with what we’re sharing here, we cannot tell what’s happening when we may be spank on the underlying level of our children until much later.


So why take that chance when there’s another way, right? Like there’s another way to do this. And so we don’t need to take that chance. Maybe, you know, I always give the example of, if two parents get a divorce, I’ve seen families, even in personal circles where one child, as a result of that divorce desires, a marriage that was going to last a lifetime and they dedicate their being to it. And then another child that says, I never want to get married. I saw what happened in divorce and I’m, I’m, I’m pushed away from it. I want nothing to do with it. And so we don’t know how it’s going to impact each child individually until much later when we see that manifestation. And so that’s why, it’s why, when there’s a better way, a better way that you can also feel good about.

Wendy:
Yep. Yeah. The same thing happens with like alcoholic parents, right? Like I have a good friend who brother like really ended up in a bad, bad, bad state. And then the other brother who was my boss for a long time, just a hundred percent focus to being sober and was just like an advocate for him, his entire life. Right. So I love that point of you do just never know. And like, if you, Terry always says, if you didn’t have, yeah. If you really believe that you didn’t have to wouldn’t you want to choose this way. And I think the problem comes down to people think and have been told that you are disrespecting God, if you don’t correct your children in this way.


And that is why one of the reasons why it’s so important to just start having these conversations in a healthy, respectful place, because we are, I am, I am saying you are not, you are actually respecting Jesus, right? Like I love how you pointed out Tanya, that we are living in the covenant of the new Testament. Like Jesus is our example. Jesus is our role model. Right? I think people get really confused and hung up in the old Testament. That’s okay. Like there’s so much that we learn and God teaches us. And it’s an, every single scripture is there is a way to understand it. And all of these books we’ve mentioned will help you understand those old Testament scriptures.


And we are living in a new covenant. Like we have a direction, right? Like it is under, under the guidance. It is under, it is under Jesus. So I love that.

Tanya:
The more that we can model Jesus in our home, the more our children are going to understand who he is, who he really is, the character of Christ. And I think that’s, that’s so important when we can understand the character of Christ. It deepens our relationship with him and we get to be that first experience of Christ within the home with our children. And so I’m always looking to the fruit of the spirit and how I’m operating. And I’m always looking to the character of Christ and in my personal relationship with him, getting to know who he is, more so that I can embody that in my parenting journey.

Wendy:
Isn’t that true? I always ask, I guess, especially when I teach at church, when it comes to the fruit of the spirit, right? Like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness. And self-control like, like that we get right. When we’re like healthy, connected relationship with the Lord, those are the gifts, right? Like who, what parent does not want more than that? Yeah. Like what more of that? Like I think we all would raise our hands and say that we’re a little deficient of those things at many times. And the gift of the connection with God is just blesses us with those. And then we get to use them in our parenting and it’s a journey, so, oh my goodness.


I’m so happy that you, you told listeners about that. And then we’ll have you back in just a few months, Tanya, we’ll talk about sleep. And of course, we’re going to talk about just how our relationship and our connection with our kids has so much to do with sleep. I know you’re passionate about speaking on that, but if you could just tell listeners where they can find you for now and, and anything you want to, you want to share before we, we say goodbye.

Tanya:
Sure. I’m you can find me on Instagram @tanyacamps and also my website, Tanyacamps.com. And I’m recently, I’m starting up my sleep page. It’s @sleepytimetoddler. So I’ll be working with all families in terms of sleep, but specializing in the toddler stage.

Wendy:
Awesome. Tanya, thank you so much. My heart just is so happy right now and I feel better. I know you and I were both nervous before we had this conversation and now I’m like, praise God. We did it. And listeners, I just hope you are blessed. And you know, our DMS and our emails, you know, they’re open for conversation. We invite healthy respect, full conversation around this. We are, we are here. If you want to shoot us a DM and please share you guys, if you love this episode and you would like to be part of the movement to change, you know, what’s being taught in the, in the Christian Church around discipline that please screenshot this right now and then share it to your stories.


Like Tanya said, we’re both really active on Instagram. She’s @tanyacamps, I’m @freshstartwendy. We would really love to just, you know, share that out. And we’re just thankful so much for you being part of this movement. So thanks so much for listening families. And we will see you for our next episode

For links and more info about everything we talked about in today’s episode had a freshstartfamilyonline.com/123. And if you love this episode, and if you love our show in general thinks we love you too. Make sure you leave us a review over on iTunes. It takes less than two minutes usually. And it’s just a great way to say thank you for all of this free content that we produce for you.

Stella:
For more information, go to freshstartfamilyonline.com. Thanks for listening. Families have a great day.


Alright, families, that’s a wrap. I hope you loved this discussion today just as much as we loved recording this episode for you. So remember I think the perfect compliment to go along with this conversation that we had today is our free fresh start family learning guide to how to design affective logical consequences at work. So head on over, if you haven’t already and grabbed that now at freshstartfamilyonline.com/disciplineguide.

If you have a question, comment or a suggestion about today’s episode, or the podcast in general, send me an email at [email protected] or connect with me over on Facebook @freshstartfamily & Instagram @freshstartwendy.

 

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