This episode of the Fresh Start Family Show brings a beautiful conversation between Wendy and the inspiring Meredith Miller: a pastor, parent, and writer with over 20 years experience in children’s ministry and curriculum.
This topic is triggering for many people who were raised in a rigidly interpreted version of what the Bible says about homosexuality and other variations of it.
The more we can create a safe space for these open conversations, the more we can try to understand that which we don’t understand, that we aren’t that different, and there is room for EVERYONE at the table.
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Episode Highlights:
- Obedience is not the goal. It’s a secondary to trust. Trust is the goal.
- Showing our kids they can trust us helps us present a God that they can trust, too
- Affirming Theology is the Christian belief that LGBQT+ people are invited to follow Jesus just as they are
- How we view the Bible makes all the difference in how we apply it
- People in power have often used scripture to help them keep their position and power (slavery, patriarchy, corporal punishment, etc)
- Keeping certain jobs in the church reserved for certain people and weighting sins is not what true Christianity was mean to be
- Have open conversations with our kids that all people bare God’s image and that we have unique ways that God made us to be
Resources Mentioned:
Where to find Meredith:
Newsletter: https://meredithannemiller.substack.com/
Her Book Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn’t Have to Heal From
Episodes mentioned:
59 & 60, Jim & Lynn and Jackson of Connected Families
85 Parenting with a Humble Servant Heart
90 Having Long Term Influence with Carlos Whittaker
137 Relishing in the Fruits of the Spirit with Christina Dronen
143 Dr. David and Amanda Erickson of Flourishing Homes & Families
151 David Hayward Breaking Free from Fear and Embracing Deconstruction Thoughts
162 Sheila Wray Gregoire and Rebecca Lindenbach of Bare Marriage
Not able to listen or want to read along with us?
Here is the episode transcript!
This episode of the Fresh Start Family Show is brought to you by the Fresh Start Experience, a full support program for parents looking for clear answers and easy to implement guidance on how to redirect their children’s misbehavior with integrity, connection, and long-term effectiveness. Enjoy a hundred percent off the joining fee. Plus get two months free when you choose an annual family transformation package by heading to freshstartfamilyonline.com/jointoday. But hurry, because this special Spring Cleaning offer ends on May 1st.
Wendy:
Well, hello listeners and welcome back to a new episode. I’m your host, Wendy Snyder, positive parenting educator and family life coach. And I am so excited to have Meredith Miller on the show today who is going to be talking to us about how we can be LGBQT+ affirming with our families and in the world. This is a precious conversation and I’m really excited about it, but I’m also just feeling a little nervous because it feels vulnerable the more and more that I really lean in to being the kind of Christian that I wanna be. Not that so much of the traditional Christian world wants me to be, if that makes sense.
It feels vulnerable, right? Like to be discussing things like this which have traditionally just had a cloud over them of oppression and disinclusion and labels and condemnation and judgment when it comes to the LGBQT+ community. And then on top of that, lately there seems to be even more rhetoric around who they are and all the things. And so for me standing up and starting to have conversations on this show that are important to me and that stand tall for, like I said, the kind of Jesus follower I wanna be that I believe in where I feel like I am leading, being led, it just feels vulnerable, right?
So I know there’s gonna be some listeners who listen to this and they just bounce. They cannot handle the idea of talking about this when they have been taught or fed messaging that is in opposition to what Meredith and I are gonna discuss today. And that is, okay, I wish you only the best and I pray that you are just able to at some point listen and learn in regards to this instead of making assumptions that you know it all right? But today we’re just gonna have a great conversation around this subject. And really you guys, I wanted Meredith to come on the show to talk about this because she is one I, now that I’ve met Meredith, I’ve met a lot of amazing pastors in the world who are really doing great educational work around this topic.
And so I just connected so much with what Meredith teaches and empowers families when it, when it comes to being LGBQT+ affirming. And on top of that, Meredith is just amazing. She is her Instagram account, her newest book, like everything that she does as a pastor and a helper of families of faith is just incredible. So trust me, there is so much that Meredith teaches about and pours into families that is in addition to this topic. But this one was just important for me to find someone to bring on and talk about because I just know that there are so many families out there who have children who are starting to be able to have the courage to say, Hey mom and dad, I’m feeling this.
Or, Hey mom and dad, I wanna tell you something. And I just want families out there to be prepared for parents to know how to respond with compassion and connection. And to know that you do not have to take the traditional what has been fed to you by the air quotes Christian Church about what it means to be LGBQT+, okay? You have choices you can learn from people like Meredith, there are so many amazing pastors who are creating inclusive environments and changing the narrative, which is not changing scripture, trust me, this is not about changing scripture. And you’re, you’re gonna hear Meredith and I really talk about how there have been so many things that the church, the church, trust me, I love a good church.
I love a good church. And there are many churches that have taught and spread rhetorics and messages that, you know, scripture means when it’s just absolutely false. There is so much that the church has gotten wrong. I have been a very strong advocate for so many years in regards to this around corporal punishment, right? Like it is just not accurate that the Bible teaches us to hit and harm our children in the name of Jesus Christ. Like it is just false. And it’s been taught for decades and centuries that that is biblical, right? So you’re gonna be really encouraged to hear that what Meredith teaches us is biblically and just it’s sound.
It is sound for those of us of faith to hear and listen to what Meredith has to share and what she teaches. So let me tell you just a little bit about her. Meredith Miller is a pastor, a parent and writer with over 20 years experience in children’s ministry and curriculum. In 2019, she and her husband Curtis, started Pomona Valley Church, a church that wants to live the one another’s, a neighbor well and do justice and eat. But for the five years prior, she was curriculum director for the children’s Ministry at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, Illinois, where she created the framework for lessons that responds to the latest research on kids and faith formation.
I love how much research backed information in combination with scripture that Meredith provides. But since 2007, she’s also been involved with the work of the Fuller Youth Institute. Meredith holds a master of divinity from Fuller Seminary as well as a BA in Religious Studies and Spanish language and literature from Westmont College. On top of that, Meredith has a new book coming out in August of 2023 called Woven: Nurturing A Faith Your Kid Doesn’t Have To Heal From. And like I mentioned before, the education and just light-filled incredible work she does over on her Instagram account and through her podcast and through her book now is just something you guys are definitely going to want to check out.
So if this message today really resonates with you, and even though you might not be totally on board and you might not totally understand yet, thank you for being here. Thank you for being willing to listen, listen to understand instead of listen to respond, right? I think there is such an invitation happening in the world right now, and especially within the walls of Christianity. There is an invitation to listen and learn. And so that is what how I showed up to the table today. And I pray that you do the same, but if this episode resonates with you, I want you to really, you know, look, remember we have tons of episodes that are going to challenge the traditional, I don’t even think traditional is a good way to put it, because I have some team members who are like, Wendy, we’re part of a beautiful church and there is none of this rhetoric that gets spread, right?
So it’s really, it’s just some circles of Christianity that come in really hot with messages that I stand against, right? So the, we have so many other Fresh Start Family show episodes that speak to being rooted in your own beliefs as a Christian and being willing to listen and learn instead of judge condemn and just believe everything the church has spoken over the last few hundred years. So just to name a few, we’ve had our friends from Connected Families who is just the most incredible positive parenting ministry, but they’ve come on the show a few times.
Jim and Lynn Jackson, the first time they came on was episode 59, how to Make Discipline Both Compassionate and Effective. Episode 60, just Jim came on to talk about navigating doubts and triggers for Dads. Jim’s story is just so incredible. I just, I could go into it right now, but I won’t. But I just love his way of teaching and his experience with children that led him to become a positive parenting educator, educator to found Connected Families with his wife Lynn, and their ministry is just awesome. And then there’s also episode 162 with the amazing Sheila Ray Gregor and her daughter, Rebecca Linden Bach, where they came on to talk to us about raising girls to resist toxic teachings from the church on self sex and speaking up.
And I just love those ladies so much, the work that they do with their own podcast called Bear Marriage to help women in particular who have been fed really twisted and untruthful narrative around what scripture says in regards to women’s roles within the family, within marriage, and especially with like young girls and purity, so to speak. Their work is really important and it was just an honor to highlight them on our show too. And then episode 85, parenting with a Humble Servant Heart is one that Terry and I recorded again about challenging some of the status quo that presents itself in some Christian circles.
Episode 90 was about having long-term influence through faith and harnessing hope with the Carlos Whittaker, which, oh my gosh, that episode is just one of my favorite. Carlos Whittaker is the type of Christian that gives me hope. Christianity, because I watch so much of what’s happening to my faith or my brothers and sisters of Christ within this faith. And it just breaks my heart into pieces. But then I’m learning now to come to really surround myself with more people that inspire me and that I look at them and I watch them and I, and I hear the way they lead and guide and pastor and I’m like, heck yes. Let’s keep going. Let’s keep going.
Like everything’s okay. Everything’s okay. Jesus, thank you. So Carlos Whitaker is one of those people. We had episode 137 Relishing in the Fruits of the Spirit in our parenting walk with Christina Dronen, who is just incredible. And she is the founder of Gentle Christian Parenting. She’s just a gift to the world. And then the Amanda and Dr. David and Amanda Erickson of Flourishing Homes and Families came on to talk to us about how to see weaknesses as strength under construction on episode 143. And my goodness, talk about a life changing ministry happening, helping parents to step backwards away from the toxic Christian circles that are out there, right?
And step into a place of a hundred percent faith and leaning on Jesus Christ instead of the church to parent in the way that is totally scripturally sound, but also in line with research. Their work is just out of this world. Amazing. And then we had episode 151, which is breaking free from Fear and embracing Deconstruction Thoughts with David Hayward, aka, the Na, the Naked Pastor, who is one of my favorite pastors out there again, gives me so much hope for the future of Christianity and just makes me feel closer and more connected with Jesus. That episode is really, really amazing.
So that is what I’m encouraging you to go kind of explore some of those. If you listen to this and you’re like, oh my goodness, there is a way for me to be different there, you know it, there is a way for you to find comfort and be, you know, trustworthy. That by asking questions and by, you know, being willing to do things a little different or speak to your kids differently, or not buy into everything that has been written by a Christian author or a pastor about what the Bible means, that you can find empowerment in that, that you can trust that you’re on the right path and you are in a safe place here to ask questions and be surrounded by other families of faith who are also in that same place as you.
Right? We are a place here at Fresh Start Family that is welcome. You know, we welcome families of all faith. We always say, if you are searching, saved, black, brown, white, gay, straight, sure, unsure, older, younger, peace filled, pain filled, able bodied or differently abled, no matter how many moms or dads or divorces or kids or chromosomes or failures or successes or questions you have, no matter your gender or status or where you are from, know that you are welcome here and we really do mean it. So families of Christian faith, families of Muslim faith, families of Jewish faith, families of no faith, you are welcome here at our table.
And I am always going to go the extra mile for families of Christian faith who are facing this, A) opposition to positive parenting, opposition to firm and kind, compassionate discipline versus punishment. And also facing these stories, this rhetoric that is being spread about who is accepted within the church, who is living in sin, who is not living in sin, what makes you good, what makes you bad, all these things, everyone is welcome here and safe to explore and find the courage to do things differently than what I call those toxic circles.
So that was a long intro, but thank you for listening again. This does feel like a vulnerable one for me and I’m just couldn’t be more thrilled and humbled and honored to put it out into the world. And please go check out Meredith, her work is just absolutely incredible. Make sure that you pre-order her book because that really helps authors you guys when you pre-order their book. But she is Meredith Anne – with an e – Miller over on Instagram. Give her a follow and you’ll see her posts are so easy to learn from and digest and they’re just really a great way to, to learn about what she teaches, to teach your kids faith messages in a way, as her book says, that they won’t have to heal from later on in life.
So without further to you guys enjoy this episode, help me welcome Meredith to the show and thank you in advance for sharing. If you listen to this and you love it, just take a screenshot right now and when you have a moment later, share it to Instagram, making sure you tag me. I’m @FreshStartWendy, tag @MeredithAnneMiller and let us know in the dms why did you love this episode? What aha moments, what challenges do you feel come forward when you look at this conversation? Or when you think about the idea of possibly like, is your child at a point where you’re starting to to think this could be happening for them or they could be part of the LGBQ t plus community?
We are here for you. We are open to these discussions. Please reach out. We would love, love, love to hear from you and just thank you so much for listening and for learning with us.
Stella:
Well, hey there, I’m Stella. Welcome to my mom and dad’s podcast, the Fresh Start Family Show. We’re so happy you’re here. We’re inspired by the ocean, Jesus, and rock and roll and believe deeply in the true power of love and kindness. Together we hope to inspire you to expand your heart, learn new tools and strengthen your family. Enjoy the show.
Wendy:
Well, hello there listeners and welcome back to a new episode of the Fresh Start Family Show. I am thrilled to be here today with this Ms. Meredith Miller. Welcome to the show Meredith.
Meredith:
Hi. Thank you. I am so excited.
Wendy:
Me too. When you said yes to this interview Meredith months ago, I was like yes. And I’ve just been looking forward to having this conversation. Families, we are going to be talking today about Faith, the Bible and being LGBQT+s affirming. And Meredith, you have a ministry that I have just been admiring for quite some time now. I love the way you speak into families with such encouragement and light and your style of teaching and just empowering families and blessing them is just awesome. So thank you for what you do and thank you for coming to the table today to have this conversation with us.
Meredith:
Oh, thank you. That’s really kind.
Wendy:
Yes. Okay, so before we get into our main subject of the day, I want to start with just talking a little bit about your story. So tell us, Meredith, tell us all the things where, where do you live? How did you become so passionate about what you do now? I think you’re in the midst of starting a church right now, right? Is that what I saw? Maybe? Yeah, up in the LA area.
Meredith:
Yeah, we came back in June of 2019 back to LA area, which is where I’m from and started a church with a group of friends. And so we started September, 2019, which means March, 2020 hits and we were six months into being a church plant. So wow, that’s weird. And yet, and yet here we are and we are just a very, very small group that is just beginning to explore transitioning off of Zoom now. And most of us are based in southern California. About a third of us aren’t, and we’re trying to figure out kind of a new way to follow Jesus into the world together. Not cuz that stuff is new, but because the machine that’s been built around it means we maybe wanna try some things that feel new to us.
And I have been in church ministry my whole career and most of that has been kids and families. And so I started volunteering in kids ministry young, I taught my first lesson to a group of fourth to sixth graders when I was 16. And I have just been in and out of different spaces, largely megachurches, suburban, mega mega churches, including five years at Willow Creek in Chicago. I was the curriculum director for age two to grade five. So there was a team of us that did all of our own writing of like how would we explore God in scripture with kids? And so that long time combined with that particular five years is a big part of sort of how I became passionate about this because along the way I got connected to Fuller Youth Institute who does research on faith formation and a lot of what they were seeing were continuing to see play out as far as kids inheriting a faith that is more about keeping rules and managing lists than it is about knowing God.
Yeah. And then I jumped to this time at Willow where the whole team was collectively trying to reimagine how you first told stories to children then that would perhaps make our best attempt at not doing that to them. And so for them, that was a total overhaul of a model that they had grown, that taught kids exactly what to do after every Bible story and they blew it up and together we wrote this whole other thing where every time we talked to kids about the Bible, it was who is God in the story and how can we help invite kids to respond to that often in really positive ways. But sometimes that means they need space to ask questions or share doubts or say it doesn’t feel true and seeing it work
Wendy:
Wow
Meredith:
in all these different and diverse children, almost always able to engage in their own way, seeing how much of their own story they would share because you created a different kind of space and they didn’t feel like they had to fit the mold be good. They were able to say what they really thought and felt and the things that came out. It was just very validating to this team to say like, okay, God is really using this approach to create space for children to get to know God in really lovely healthy ways that honor who they are as children and give them the time and space they deserve. So collectively then here I, here I am now.
Wendy:
Amazing. And and did their research also have complimentary research that kind of proved or showed that the, like the exile of the youth, it was like a lot of that youth that learned that way is exiting the church at like a crazy rates now?
Meredith:
The project I got involved in was coming out of those first numbers of the rise in disaffiliation with religiosity sort of broadly speaking. And so it was originally, I mean the hope of course had been can we find the magic bullet?
Wendy:
Yeah.
Meredith:
And, and no, no cuz there isn’t one. But what did come out of that were a lot of really helpful themes. And so the study looked at young people’s youth, they were youth group kids for three years across their college transition and looking for what experiences they might have had while they were still a part of that original faith community that either helped or hindered them moving into that first season of adulthood. And so while there was nothing magic, there was a lot about who they thought God was and what they thought God really wanted from them, that was pretty important. There was a lot about the culture of their faith communities, like supporting their growth and having space for doubt in question and how like positive that was as opposed to
Wendy:
Or not,
Meredith:
Or not, if they were given everything they had to do. So there was a lot of echoing of the stories. We continue to hear from those folks who are now full blown adults and often parenting themselves. Yeah. They were speaking up for themselves and what they shared starting in that was, you know, oh 7, 0 8, 0 9. So now we’re 15 years after everything that those people shared then has become more widespread, deeper and truer the more we share stories as you know, community of folks. And so it was really helpful I think in giving us some grounding of like, of course they’re leaving, the God they’re leaving is kind of crummy.
Wendy:
Yeah, yeah. And like yeah, totally doesn’t make sense and all the things. Yeah, I love that. So, and now, now Meredith, how old are your own kids now?
Meredith:
I have a son who is seven and a half and then my older son just turned 10.
Wendy:
Nice. So two boys. And tell me how you spend your days now. Are you a hundred percent ministry focused? I mean you’ve got, sounds like your church is a big part and then you’ve got your ministry on Instagram too. I mean, do you do things outside? Are you pretty much Instagram based or tell us what your day-to-day kind of looks like these days?
Meredith:
Well, we’re multi vocational as far as how our little church goes. And so that is a part-time and then it means there’s just like a whole bunch of other stuff going on that kind of makes things go. So yeah, a lot of the writing I do on Instagram is just because, and it’s more because I love it. I coach CrossFit at my local gym mornings a week and I tutor Spanish for a couple of students because that’s what I majored in an undergrad. And so there’s just a list of of stuff that sort of gets ticked off bit by bit through the days. And thankfully the upside of multi vocational is the afternoon flexibility to kind of do the school pickup, connect with families in our school.
We’ve really enjoyed that piece a lot, but it means days are pretty mundane, right? Like go to the gym, make all the sandwiches in the whole wide world, get them off to school and then try to see how much you can get done in about six hours before pickup goes on. And then do the afternoon thing, wash ’em up, get ’em to bed. Yeah. Okay. I’m not, we only wash ’em up like a couple times a week, but no, and and then we do it again. So
Wendy:
That’s so funny. Oh yeah, it’s true. Awesome. Yeah, I know it’s like being a, a working mom, parent, whatever. It’s, it’s funny like the, the work, the work week, it’s like yes we, we, we actually end up working 40 hours a week oftentimes with our jobs, but the eight to one like before pickup, right? Pickups like two and you just get as much done in that time and then the rest of the work is like you’re kind multi scattered. Yeah,
Meredith:
Totally. I’m like, oh you get your homework today, great. I’m gonna work next to you at the kitchen table. We’re all gonna do work for the next half hour.
Wendy:
Well your writing really is so beautiful and every single post that you create I can just tell you pour your heart into so families you really gotta make sure you go follow Meredith over on on Instagram because I know how much time it takes to write and create content for Instagram and it is like, it’s like you’re writing a mini book so hopefully you’ll have a book one day with all this because this is this, everything is is solid gold what you are teaching families and the way you’re really advocating for kids to grow up in a healthy faith environment and to have a real chance at having a relationship with Jesus in a way that they’re not going to be less likely to leave or abandoned or just give up on one day.
And so it’s really important and I just love your work.
Meredith:
Thank you.
Wendy:
You’re welcome. So okay, well let’s start off before we get into our beautiful conversation about just really being an LGBQT+ affirming family, what that looks like, what that means, you know, it’s can I, I definitely have some nerves around that conversation cuz it’s one that I’ve been wanting to have for so long and I just like, it’s that that idea like you just wanna like do it right? You wanna honor people and you wanna not mess up anything. So before we even get into that, no. For the LGBQT+ community, please know that I am welcome for feedback. I am always aiming to just open my heart and learn more. And I’m just really coming into this today Meredith, just wanting to learn so much and glean your wisdom and, and really bless children.
Like I just want, I’m such a advocate for children and I know there are so many children in this world that are just hurting and suffering because most of the world is not operating in this capacity like we’re gonna talk about today. So that’s my intention. It’s gonna be a great conversation. I can’t wait, but first I wanna chat with you. You are just a wonderful voice of light in our world when it comes to parenting and faith and just this idea that, you know, obedience is not the goal when it comes to raising human souls. And so every time I find a new account like yours these days, thank God, they’re like, I feel like they’re popping up everywhere. Like, not that they’re popping up, but because my circle of Christians who are like-minded is growing, it’s like I, I get so excited every time I meet someone.
I’m pretty sure I probably DM’d you when I first found your account and I was like, cause you know, there’s just a lot of of different messaging going out there to families of Christian faith, especially when it comes to training your children and on the, the discipline, a k a punishment train and all that kind of stuff. So when it comes to accounts like yours and flourishing homes and families and connected, connected families who are are all dear friends of mine, I’m just so thankful. So so tell us a little bit about your, your stance on just parenting and when it comes to being a faith family of faith and also raising young human souls and how obedience is not the goal.
Meredith:
Obedience is not the goal. Obedience is not the goal, it’s part of the thesis of the book. I actually did get to write so,
Wendy:
But I didn’t know I was allowed to mention it.
Meredith:
No, I do. Yeah. I I do have a book and that is like in the intro and so it’s predicated on that assumption. Obedience isn’t the goal for a couple of reasons. One, I genuinely do not think that is what God is most after from people who trust God of any age. I think obedience is a secondary response to trust. I think trust is the goal and when we trust who God is and who God will be, that then allows for us to let our life be shaped by, by that relationship to have some sort of change happen, which would then include times where we might find ourselves saying, okay, I’m, I’m gonna do this out of what would be typically an obedient sense.
But trust being the goal changes everything for how you raise a kid. Because if a kid is going to discover if God is trustworthy, then the adults who nurture that child need to give that kid exposure to the stories that we tell that testify to a trustworthy God both from scripture and from our faith communities. If a kid’s gonna discover if God is trustworthy, they need to be allowed to ask hard questions about why the world seems so far from what God dreams. We say that God would love for the world to be full of flourishing and life and wholeness and justice and kids have eyes and notice that’s not true. And so we need to be able to be with them talking through what they see and affirming those questions.
They need their own growth process, right? And so I want us to be continually shifting to a trust-based paradigm. And then of course it might be get that question for anyone who, who came from the old obedient centered world of like, what, but what do you do about, you know, making good choices and being responsible And it’s like we had this whole beautiful world coming out of the psychological space about how to raise kids well that we have broad brush strokes in the Christian tradition, kind of like side eyed, like right
Wendy:
Pop psychology.
Meredith:
Yeah. And, and that’s is that biblical parenting and it’s like right, does it lead a child to life and joy and health and connectedness? I’ve been, I call that biblical, does it align with the character of God and, and the kind of ways that humanity is meant to experience God in this world? I would say the testimony of this camp of parenting is saying, is saying so and the, the young people that are coming up through it are saying so and so. I find it so silly that we would come to the Bible expecting it to tell us what to do when our kids sass us. And so that’s what we’re most looking for. But what the Bible can do is tell us of a God who will be with us in hard times, which a kid would need to know would tell us of a God who suffers with who enters in.
We’ve put so much focus on wanting compliant children in especially certain Christian subculture. And I think there’s a lot of freedom for saying we can actually have just growing children who are learning what it is to become human and maybe God really is gracious with the fact that we grow in slow and sometimes clumsy, sometimes sassy and sometimes frustrating ways. Yeah. But that doesn’t mean anything is fundamentally wrong or defective in our family or with our child. That means we’re growing together as we learn what it looks like to actually trust God and then move into the world accordingly. So that’s the framework I operate out of
Families. I am pausing this episode to share some exciting news who is ready for some spring cleaning and know I’m not talking about your closets or kitchen cabinets. I’m talking about in your parenting walk. I know because I’ve been there myself that so many of you still have some hand-me-down parenting tactics cluttering up your home and growing cobwebs in your heart. These old school ways of doing things are not only ineffective at actually getting your strong-willed kiddos to cooperate well and listen better, but they’re also creating massive riffs in your relationship with not only your kids but also your partners and spouses.
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Wendy:
It’s so good. And man that book is gonna be fire. I cannot wait for it to come out. Meredith is it out yet?
Meredith:
No, it’s not out yet. Nope. August. It’s August, yeah
Wendy:
August, 2023. Amazing. Yeah and it just, as you were speaking it just, I get these like visions, I’m so visual and I just like picture this whole generation that’s just like changing the, like the way they’re growing up and and learning who God is. It directly translates to how they will parent, right? Because like God is that that parent, right? That like parent figure. It’s our first fatherly figure and it’s amazing how if you, if you have a fear-based definition of God, that’s exactly how you translate to what it’s like to raise a good human soul. So it’s just amazing to think how this generation that you are pouring into to, to teach their children to have a different relationship and understanding of who God is, is gonna just so naturally be able to parent with trust and connection and relationship and all those things.
And you are so spot on. Like it it, I mean it’s so fun to be at a stage now Meredith, where my kids are 12 and 15 and they are growing, they are human, right? So there’s not perfection And we’ve been doing this now for 12 and a half years, right? As a positive parenting educator and family life coach. But we found the work and we did a full 180 with my daughter Stella when she was three. So now she’s 15. And it is wild to see like cuz it always felt like an like an experiment a little bit. I’m like, oh gosh, here I am educating about this stuff and I’m like, I don’t have a teenager yet, so we’ll see. And it’s like every day I pinch myself and I’m like, yes, it, it air quotes not only works but like it feels so good to have trust like that Yeah.
To have connection and trust where like your kid’s not scared you’re gonna hurt ’em, your kid’s not scared you’re gonna humiliate or shame or be better then, but your kid is just trust you and that turns into they, they trust you as their mentor and their guide. So when you, when you teach and you set firm limits and you use compassionate discipline, like it really works like it, it sinks deep down into their little souls because, because of the trust that you’re talking about. And so, and that’s like the exact same relationship we wanna have with God, right? Like it’s we, we are so much more easily influenced when we trust someone that they’re not gonna hurt us or humiliate us or strike us down with lightning because they can.
So good. Well thank you. Thank you for advocating that for that and boy I can’t wait for that, that book to come out. Okay, well let’s get into our subject matter this Faith the Bible and being LGBQT+. I’m still working on like that, like rolling off my tongue but I’m gonna get there And what we’re gonna talk about today, which you’re gonna bless us with your incredible wisdom around is what is affirming theology, what should kids be hearing about being LGBQT+ and what should kids hear about LGBQT+ folks? And before we even start, I mentioned before, you know, I feel nervous talking about this because it’s just one of those areas that I just feel like I just am so sad about what’s happened in the Christian world to like just not honor this community and not only not honor but hurt.
I got a message the other day DM from one of my students and this was a student that like doesn’t come to live coaching or anything. So we have families all over the world in our programs and I’ve never seen her at live coaching or anything, but she messaged me and she was like, hey, just wanted to say hi, thank you so much for what you know, this and that she said, I wanted to let you know that I, when I first started hearing your messaging or or your lessons when she first joined our program called the Fresh Start Experience, she said, I first started hearing you talk about God in the lessons and I was like, oh no, here we go. I didn’t realize this was such a christiany program and or something like that. I’m not gonna say her words exactly right, but she said, I didn’t realize, you know, I was scared because I’ve had such an awful experience with the Christian community and have just honestly been like scared and just wanted to like distance myself from God because I just feel like it’s been such a bad experience.
She said I have a transgender little boy and just yesterday he was told at school how he’s going straight to hell and I forget if she said something like, and you’re gonna die and go straight to hell. But it was intense and I forget the age of her kiddo, but he seemed pretty little. And so she said, I just, you know, I just wanna thank you and this isn’t about me at all, it’s just the message, right? This is just what I want for the world, it’s just what I want for children is she said, just thank you for holding this space and being a Christian who doesn’t engage in that and like actually makes it safe to like get to know God or hear his name or even contemplate having a relationship with Jesus or God. And it just, I was like gushing, I voice memo back and I was crying and she’s probably like so freaked out by me now, but I’m like, oh, I’m like, you don’t understand how much this means to me because I just see like how much these children are hurting.
And so much of the Christian world has just been like, you’re just living in sin. You just, you know, like God loves you just the way you are, but he loves you too much to leave you like that. And it’s just these kids have like such high suicide rates and depression rates and anxiety and like the ma the vast majority of the studies are, I mean you, you should talk about all this, but it just seems like the vast majority of them are in like non affirming spaces in my interpretation because of the rhetoric or the, the falsehoods that have been taught to them through these like certain sections of Christianity. So I see it so much in the discipline world and it’s like in the com, the Christian like punishment world, let’s say, where people for for eons centuries have interpreted the Bible to mean that you should hit and harm your children in order to make them good godly human beings.
And so I just look at this and I’m like man, if they got that that wrong right then there’s a really good chance that they’ve gotten this wrong and it’s time to discuss it and talk about it. And so that is my little intro. So with all that said Meredith, talk to us about this. What is affirming theology?
Meredith:
Well and at first I would just echo some things you’ve said that we need to be open and curious if any of us have come from the more powerful versions of Christianity in the West as far as the things we might’ve gotten wrong. And also just to preface that like I come to this as a straight white cisgendered woman who as far as I know at this point has straight cisgendered children as far as what they’ve expressed about themselves in this point in their journey. And so there is a decent chance there are gaps and what I know or what I say and I certainly can’t then speak on behalf of. And so I’ll be able to more speak to the pillars that we think of biblically and theologically that help kind of shape this space.
And so affirming theology is the Christian belief that lgbtq plus folks are invited to follow Jesus as they are. And by follow Jesus I mean live as themselves in all the things that any other Christian person might be invited to do. So marriage, church leadership, church boards, and serving teams because being queer is not inherently sinful. And so this idea that not only are you invited into the family of God but that you can remain queer as you live out your life in the family of God in every way that that coming from our understanding of scripture and our understanding of car theological principles, that’s the, the heart of that.
Wendy:
Yeah. And right off the bat, let’s just two questions to get outta the way cuz I know so many people I know, I’m just envisioning so many incredible parents listening right now with just open hearts who I said again came from this like very strict teaching that like yeah it’s, it’s really rigid a gay, yeah, it’s so rigid and like, and I see it to this day, people that I love that I see them share stuff and I’m like, oh goodness, you’re still in this this. But, but anyways, so many. But I vision them now and they’re just like, their hearts are open and they just are feeling this calling to like learn more. So first off, explain to them what do you mean by cisgender straight cisgender?
Meredith:
Yep. So cisgender and transgender are opposites. And so a person would then find themselves identifying more towards one or the other. Like all things with gender and sexual identities are continued understanding is that these things work more like a spectrum than they do a binary. So more like I follow along a range as a person and less like I check a box that makes me one or the other. And that, that would be true of most people. That if, if we had more conversational space and if we had more understanding collectively as a community, probably all of us would say, here’s why I land on a spectrum as it relates to my gender and sexual identity. So transgender and cisgender are opposite and then straight and queer would be two different descriptors that, and queer is a word that would then encompass LGBQT+ identities.
And whenever you find yourself in the delightful company of a queer person, they may or may not have particular words that feel like a better fit for how they would like to self-describe. And so we would of course defer to that.
Wendy:
Yes. Okay. Okay. That’s so helpful. And then talk to us, like talk specifically right now, right off the bat, I know there’s a lot of families who are listening that are like, wait, wait, wait, what? Like what do you mean sin or being gay or being queer is not inherently a sin. Like right away they’re just like, wait, what? No, no, no. We’ve been taught it is, yeah, it is living in sin.
Meredith:
Yeah. And that is the single biggest sticking point for folks who are transitioning out of the so-called traditional theological view. Because overwhelmingly that’s been the idea is you simply cannot be LGBTQ+ and Christian. If you, if you’re in that spot then it’s like, well what’s the rest of the conversation about? And instead we might consider what is increasingly showing up through both research and people telling their own stories about how this is a variation of normal and we have a long history of the way power control categories.
Patriarchy has wanted to diminish that testimony from both science and people’s own lived experience. But if we start from the idea that all human beings are image bearers, most of all that is who we are. Beloved people who bear God’s image. Yeah. And then from there we layer on that we are continuing to learn that this is who someone is and not something other, you know, abnormal or ex exceptional per se. It’s a variation of normal. We talk about variation of normal in terms of body shapes and sizes. We talk about variation of normal for people who’ve had birthed babies and their various experiences of that.
We understand this in other types of spaces. It would behoove Christian folks to consider that this is our starting point as we engage with our LGBQT+ siblings. Variation of normal might be different than me, might be something I’m unfamiliar with. But there was a significant hindrance in this overall conversation when for a long run the psychological board labeled LGBTQ+ identities as disordered. And so in the clinical handbook being gay was a disorder until I believe the seventies. And that holdover has left a really poor residue in, in our understanding of just who people are.
And that was not influenced by a good faith attempt to understand people’s experience of their queer identities even though we’re 50 years-ish removed from that change that still lingers.
Wendy:
Yeah. And just like the misinterpretation of like, I mean you, you are someone coming to the table with a full degree, like you have a seminary degree, right? So it’s like, I think people, I mean it’s just such a journey, right? To understand scripture and for me, I’ve spent the last 10 years like really focusing on this scripture that people take and use to justify corporal punishment with children. That’s been my focus. But this is like second for, I have, I have not gone there yet. That’s why I feel nervous about this conversation. But it’s like it’s been on my, it’s been calling me to like really dive in and and really understand like and see like okay, I can see why they took this and turned it into this, this whole thing.
Yeah. But can you speak to that for a second just about some of the like not, not necessarily the certain scriptures, but just the idea of like Old Testament and even New Testament stuff like understanding like how do we take that where it seems so clear as day, like what they’re telling us, like the Bible’s telling us and interpret that in a way that creates this affirming way of being and trusting.
Meredith:
I facilitate a discussion group for Christian folks who would like to explore this question in a discuss not debate type culture.
Wendy:
Nice.
Meredith:
Yeah. There’s a little bit more safety and so we take, oh we take it in about six parts. So for anyone who is feeling like, wow, this is a lot, yeah, we do this over six weeks and that is like a pretty bare bones. Like let’s get some basics in place. There is, there’s so much more. And so when we do that flow, we start by talking about the genesis narrative and what that says about being image bearers. We start by poking at the way Genesis 3 has been used to stamp people as sinners or the way that the reformed definition of depravity has clouded over the power of what it is to be an image bearer.
Like we’ve, we’ve watered image bearer down to God loves you. To your point of that earlier cliche, God loves you but won’t leave you as you are. That is not what it is to bear God’s own image. That is like this idea that the king used to be the only one who was in the image of the gods and could therefore use power to sort of represent God in the world. That’s the story of every other nation around. And here comes Israel’s story to say every human has been given God’s authority to reflect God to the world in their own creative way. And that this pleases God to watch each person do this. Yeah. It’s so much stronger then God just is fond of you. And so we unpack that part and there’s a lot I think to come out of that. And then our second conversation before we move into like those six verses that ever mentioned, same sex sexual activity is the conversation we say we have to talk about the Bible before we talk about the Bible.
Wendy:
Okay.
Meredith:
Because a lot of this flows out of what you think the Bible is and how it works. Yeah. If you have metaphors in your mind of it being an instruction manual or a rule book that will influence what you think you’re supposed to do with it, what’s allowed, what it means to play fast and loose with scripture, which you know, the conservative side would love to say, you’re picking and choosing, you’re just going loosey-goosey, you’re just interpreting. Right. Right. This is actually a pretty serious engagement with scripture and when you listen to the folks that are in this affirming camp, they’re doing serious bible work. Right. And heck yeah. One of my, one of my early experiences was a gay man who came and spoke at the Christian college I was working at and did a training for us.
And basically he said, Hey, for me, if I can’t get to an affirming place through scripture, I’m not gonna be affirming at all. And so he’s like, I do think marriage is available to me and I think God will bless me as I find somebody to marry. And I think that that is all because of my understanding of scripture. But if I thought that that was a poor way to read scripture, I would choose celibacy because this book still guides my life. Yeah. And so collectively there’s this understanding of when we say scripture is still authoritative to us, that we still believe it has authority that we’re gonna kind of defer to what it might tell us God would have. That doesn’t have to mean literal, that doesn’t mean we ignore that it was written in a different time and place to a different community with a different culture and a different set of values that, and when you look at things like context, that doesn’t mean you’re playing fast and loose.
That is what it is to take the Bible seriously. Yes. To jump into its time and place and let it speak for itself is taking it seriously to turn it into like trite, literal principles is actually kind of irresponsible. And so yes, there’s, there’s a lot of lot of that of just what do I expect from the book at all that influences all this. And then that sheds light on how you might take those single six verses and there are only six and they are tiny and also Paul made up a word in one of them and how you might, how you might try to understand them well and go from there. So yeah.
Wendy:
That is so good. And you do that like at once a year, you do that six week class friends a year, you
Meredith:
Know, I do it, I do it at different times and so Oh cool. I, yes, it, it’s just comes as it comes when, when there is a six week window, then I make sure to let people know if they’d like to, to come on in and we chat and it’s fun.
Wendy:
Oh, that is amazing. Okay, well I might join you for that cuz I really do, I, I would love to, to just learn more about this and just awesome. And I, and I would love to hang out with you more, Meredith, so
Meredith:
That part’s fine. Keep Yeah, we all get to hang out. It’s good.
Wendy:
Yes. Keep me updated. I know that reminds me, that gentleman that shared with you, it reminds me of Dr. David and Amanda. Erics, Amanda and Dr. David Ericson. Eric, I don’t know why I can’t say their name.
Meredith:
Erickson.
Wendy:
Thank you. Yes. Their work and how, you know, they’re just like, they’re so good at representing the science and, and the scripture and they’re just like, they, they do such a great job of helping families understand that like what science has proved through like influencing human beings and psychology and all the things is fully represented in scripture. It’s not that like we’re just discounting certain things, it’s just that we’re helping you understand how this represents and really actually verifies the, the, the science. So, and there’s just so much room for learning. There’s, and it, it is, it is intense. Like you really have to, like you said, come to this space like being willing and open to learning because it’s just confusing.
It’s very, very confusing. Yes. I love the post David Hayworth of the Naked pastor did, he was on our show too and he was just such a, a gift to have on the show, but he, like his post to the day about the Bible was so intense. He was like, it joking how like, you know, there’s so many books are banned in the world, but the Bible actually has so much violence, rape, racism, murder, lewdness, cruelty to animals, drunkenness, genocide, hate speech, sexism, misogyny, torture, profanity, child abuse, I mean the list goes on and on. Adult suicide, horror, oc cult, abortion vulgarity, questionable author, blah blah blah, blah blah. Yes. And it was just such a great one to, to help us all remember like yeah, it’s, it’s a lot. And you just wanna keep searching for the mentors who help you understand it in ways that respect yourself and respect others and help you live a life that feels like it’s in line with what, how you really wanna be in faith.
So. Awesome. Okay, so, okay, we talked about what is affirming theology. Okay, so next let’s talk about what should kids be hearing about being LGBQT+.
Meredith:
One? I already mentioned that it’s a variation of normal and so it’s not a disorder, which you know, is just the leftover bias from I think some really historical wrongs and some wrong-headed psychology. And so just that this is another normal way for a person to be. And then along with that, so I can hear the echoes of the old thing in my, you know, in in my ears cuz cuz they’re loud folks, the non affirming side. Yeah. And so they would often say to this, you know, but, but what do you make of the mental health statistics that come from the community? What do you make Like their point would be this tells us that they’re, somehow the sin is somehow influencing.
Like of course there’s more mental illness in the queer community because they would like to say inherent defect, this is what they look at these numbers.
Wendy:
That’s so interesting.
Meredith:
Not, not,
Wendy:
That’s what they take of that.
Meredith:
Yeah. Not that it’s come from an environment that has not given them support and love, but that it’s wow somehow reflective of. And so you’re gonna have to really push on the idea that you can have a variation of normal and be helping your kid understand that it’s also a marginalized community. And so people are sometimes particularly unkind to. So people are sometimes say things that are not true about, and depending on the age of your kid, you can do that with more or less specifics. But that I think becomes a big piece. I think another one is important, that being LGBTQ is not a choice. It is who God made somebody. And there’s a complexity of factors that contributes to who someone is in terms of their gender and sexual identity.
But increasingly we have more and more witness bearing to the reality that this is not a choice, which again, the non affirming side has spent a lot of big, loud energy saying this is chosen. It’s a, it’s a sin choice. It is absolutely optional. The entire so-called conversion therapy industry is built on this idea that one could be changed because it’s optional. And I think it’s important to be starting from the get go of not a choice, not something that can nor needs to be changed about who somebody is. And then I think continuing to introduce our kids into the idea that this is not a binary, it’s not always an either or that some people are on a spectrum and so I remember for a while we had non-binary person who was part of our church community, and that was the first time that my kids who were then younger at the time, knew somebody who, whose pronouns were they / them.
Yeah. And so this was their first introduction to the singular they, and naturally they had questions of how I, how are they not a boy or a girl? And I said, well, they, all they said was they don’t feel like they fit either one. And so they’re just themself, they’re just their name. And so we say they, and that’s all the answer they needed. We didn’t have to unpack all of what it is to be a non-binary person or how one discovers that that feels like a better fit for them. But we were already as a family, talking about how there’s all these narratives about what a boy should be and what a girl should be, and how a lot of those are bogus. Right? Yeah. The earliest versions are boy toys and girl toys, boy colors and girl colors.
It’s good for all children to blow that up anyway, we like what we like. Yeah. Lots of people like lots of things. We like what we like. And so that dovetails kind of nicely to something young kids often know of. Just people are who they are and we listen to them when they tell us who they are.
Wendy:
Yeah. Yeah. You, you listen more than you speak. You listen more than you judge. You listen more than you think that, you know. Yeah. It’s so fascinating. Just last week, it was two weeks ago, I guess, we, we interviewed the, the executive director of an organ – It’s called Misrepresentation, but they created the film, the Mask You live in. Have you ever seen that film, Meredith? No. You have two boys, right? I do. Oh my gosh. You have to do, you have to watch that documentary. It’s absolutely beautiful. But it’s like, it’s amazing. But it’s all about this idea that we were just talking about this like spectrum of masculine, feminine, and it’s just really, really helpful to understand like how toxic masculinity is, like really jacked up so many men in life and how they deserve better.
And it’s just a beautiful documentary. So anyways, but I got an email that was so gnarly afterwards, this woman like freaked out on me, you know, and was like, this is, this is like an assault on boys masculinity. This is, you know, this is hateful rhetoric, like unsubscribe me immediately. But she can’t, I could tell she, you know, I know that she probably, she’s been conditioned to believe that it is dangerous to discuss this or honor anybody. Like, and, and The Mask you Live in is just like, about the like spectrum and, and the kind of the BS stuff that’s been fed about male versus feminine and how boys, you know, like throw you, you throw like a girl, don’t be a P u s s y, like, you know, boys don’t cry like that.
That’s more the film. Yes. But she was just beside herself with thinking that we were like, almost like child abuse. And I hear that a lot from, and I don’t wanna go into like this, this, these crazy things that get spread. But what would you say for, for like someone who hears that, like, and it’s just such a fear tactic, right? To even have this discussion. Right, right. And you know, you can tell the, it comes so fast with just like, well, boys have penises and girls have vaginas and that’s, it’s so, it’s so easy, you know? And it’s just like, what would you say to like, to someone to who is willing to listen and just listen. Yeah.
To like res to still stay steady and listening and learning without like responding to the fear-based tactics of the people in our communities and our circles that might still be that like heavy handed, they’re not willing to listen, they’re not willing. It’s like a very, it’s an attacking vibe. It’s like a are you effing, are you serious? Are you an idiot? Like, that is the vibe, vibe that it has. Right? So any words of encouragement for that?
Meredith:
It’s a big one to know. One, it is a big one and it’s true that there are so many places where just asking, I wonder if the Bible might have something different to say than what I’ve always been told. It says that that alone just the wondering how dare you, right? All the more is you move into, I wonder if we’ve gotten this wrong. And so I would say to find a way to protect your process. You don’t owe those people your process of how you’re carrying this question. And if they’ve shown you they’re not safe, this might be a real good time to go ahead and move that topic off the table and protect the process you have.
Because this does take time and care and study and reflection. This is not an easy choice. This is a prayerful thing and I understand why people need some space. When you’ve always been told the Bible is clear, when you’ve always been told God thinks this for a person who says, I still love God and I still care about the story of scripture, then there can be fear in all of that. And so your process needs to be safe for you. And knowing that’s true, you, you get to keep that to yourself. You don’t owe that to anybody. You don’t owe these questions to any of these people who wanna yell big mad at you. And so that to me feels like a big piece of all of it.
And then I think just to be mindful that like there are other topics where I think collectively we got it wrong. The way scripture was used to support the enslavement of Africans in the US for a very long time.
Wendy:
Yes.
Meredith:
We were just dead freaking wrong.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Meredith:
And I would say that the way scripture is used to oppress women and the way it is used to uphold patriarchy, I just am at the point where I think that those readings are absolutely dead wrong.
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Meredith:
I don’t think it’s like, oh, we disagree about women as pastors. Listen No, I just think you’re, I think you’re wrong on this. And sometimes I think Christian subculture says that in order for us to be like in good faith as a community, we owe it to hold everybody’s side. I, I don’t know that that’s always true when yeah, one side has a lot more power and the other side suffers when one side gets to kind of call the shots and the other side doesn’t get listened to. We also owe it to people to move to the margins and to listen to the marginalized with very open ears. And so I, I think being mindful that this could just be one of those things where we just got it all the way wrong.
And if you watch the reaction of those with power to being wrong about enslavement and being wrong about patriarchy, they don’t go, oh, thank you for enlightening me. Now I see
Wendy:
Or corporal punishment. Yeah.
Meredith:
Or, or yes, yes. Still going, oh, now I see they will fight to the bitter end. Yeah. That cannot be the voice you, that you will defer to, to stamp your process as right or wrong. You are never gonna hear the affirmation from those folks that you have indeed landed in a better place and now they see the light and come along with you. In fact, it, it could be costly, like that just is true that changing your mind on this does have some relational fallout and a lot of people who have shifted, you know, our, our church is an affirming church community as far as our understanding of queer folks and their role in our church and the, you know, the options that are available to them to be part of our church community.
And so everyone in our group over time, they almost all came from non affirming spaces and have changed their mind and it has cost every single one of them. And so,
Wendy:
Wow.
Meredith:
And very few have like, had lots of people come around them and said like, oh, now you know, and so that’s right. Yeah. You can’t be waiting for them to say, oh, now I, now I see now, now I do believe you that you took scripture seriously in this process. Now I do believe that God was leading you forward in these things. They’re never gonna, they’re always gonna think you were flippant with scripture. That you’re ignoring the clearer intentions of God that’s always gonna be there just like it always has been historically when people are willing to be more attuned to the spirit of God than they are to the power that has been weaponizing the Bible.
Wendy:
Dang Meredith, that was amazing. Wow. That’s so encouraging. Our last point is a, and we might have covered most of it, but we’ll, we’ll hit our last point just in case. What should kids hear about LGBQT+ folks? And if we have any, like, if you have any wrap up on that one, but yeah, that, that was so good and man, I’ll never forget, like when I was at a bible study with a dear friend, well two, two memories that I can think of the, well, even the second one was more profound on me that I was like, oh shoot, I got a different thing going on in my head. It’s actually a pastor’s wife. And I go, oh, what is, like, she was talking about how some church is very like left or something in this certain part of our town, but they were having this like amazing Christmas show and I was like, oh, why don’t, why don’t you like, she said, I don’t really like that church anyways.
And I was like, oh, why not? And she started talking about ’em and then I think she said something like, well they’re, they’re very like, I don’t even know what the term she was, but it came out. I said, I go, what do you mean? She goes, well, you know, like if you’re, if you’re gay you can come to our church, but you can’t leave a, you can’t lead a bible study. And I was like, wait, what? What do you mean? And she’s like, yeah, no, you can’t do that. And I, it just like, I, I didn’t grow up in the church. I like found God when I was 18 and the cri like the whole, and I was just shocked. I was like, what do you, what what? And that was the first experience, it was probably two years ago that I was like, oh wow, this is, I feel it in my gut. I feel it in my body that something is really wrong here.
This makes no sense. Like what a, so this just so helps me to have the courage to keep going with my exploration and learning and just continuing with an open heart and to listen and, and I really would love to be part of part of your group when you do it next. So, okay. Well any last points about this last one Meredith? What should kids hear about LGBQT+ folks?
Meredith:
I to keep saying a thing I, I say but it is so important. LGBTQ+ folks bear God’s image. They are image bears. That is who we all are. God has stamped us now there are those of us who have been able to recognize that that is true of who we are and live out of that belovedness. And there are those of us who can’t see who we truly are and we might live out of pain, but at our core there we are. And so for example, like younger kids you might be saying like God made all of us in God’s image and we all get to show that in slightly different ways because we’re unique people and all of those uniquenesses also make God happy.
This is what’s fun is that we each get to be who God made us to be. And that the more each of us makes the world more creative and fun and beautiful, that is God’s dream all along that, that we would be partnered in that way. And so this idea of being an image bearer I feel like is huge. I think that kids understanding that as they go through their life and continue to meet queer folks in different ways, in different circles, that any of them would be invited to be followers of Jesus as they are. That they don’t have to choose between trusting Jesus and honoring their identity and that that is not the, the whatever it is to take sin seriously.
This is not part of that. We are all collectively trying to figure out how to take sin seriously. You know, like massive injustices that harm the whole dying world.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Meredith:
And how might we band together to see more wholeness in life brought to very dark things. There is not some sort of extra sin management program that an LGBTQ+ person would have to be on in order to then be a follower of Jesus. We are all working on being whole people who don’t harm others who treat one another with kindness and gentleness and patience who apologize when we don’t. It’s it that is the same thing we’re all doing and we, we call that spiritual formation and we say that’s Christ-likeness that we’re trying to grow in. And so that’s the same. And then I think just being able to say like, queer folks in our churches make our churches better.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Meredith:
Just like any person who joins our church makes our church better because they bring themself and we are meant to become a group that is following Jesus into the world together. And so each person getting to be themselves and then also find that as they get to know Jesus, they become more of who they were made to be. Because I think that is what Jesus does for us. Not make us somebody other than who we were, but actually makes us most ourselves.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Meredith:
And and the core of ourselves. And so it’s like, oh our, our church is better because that person is part of it. Like, and our unique stories help us see how God works and testifies to the role that God plays in our lives. And all those pieces to your, to your earlier story, that is the more important message because so many church communities have predetermined limits for how a queer person might participate. Attendance is fine. Offering is for sure fine.
Wendy:
Oh yeah.
Meredith:
And then like I was at a megachurch where there were serving roles that were basically tiered functionally. And so there were serving roles that queer people could do and they were serving roles they couldn’t. And so that way the church could say they can serve meaning like they could do the cafe and serve coffee, but they couldn’t be in the children’s ministry even if they were parents. And to your point, like that was one of the big pushes for me to keep going deeper from the version I kind of had always heard and sort of thought, oh well there it is.
Wendy:
Yeah.
Meredith:
It was this idea that you would have parents and that they could not as the core influencers of not only their child’s identity but their child’s exploration of faith in God. They don’t get to be in one of the main spaces that we say their, their kid needs to be here. This is so important and hey parents, we need you on board except if you’re gay. Like what? Yeah. And that felt irresponsible at a pastoral theology level.
Wendy:
You can just just feel it in you, in your body too. You’re like, this makes no sense. It’s so hypo, even if it was a sin that to say that you’re, this group is living in sin so they can’t surf, but this group over here, that’s me, you the pastor. Oh, there’s nothing, there’s nothing, there’s no sin going on. So we get to serve. It makes no sense. Even if it was a sin, even if it was,
Meredith:
and that is a whole piece of all of this is, is being mindful of the way in which we have ranked sins and assigned them certain weights and values. And that very construct is worth interrogating and poking at in this overall conversation. Why is it that we have a lot of communities that will overlook greed or just flat out unkindness, perpetual chronic unkindness to just be a
Wendy:
yeah
Meredith:
mean person, mean spirited. We’ve ranked and why have we elevated this so high? Why are we so hung up on this one? And of course the non affirming camp would say, because the Bible is clear, but might it be that we’ve elevated this so high because we have kind of had a dysfunctional relationship with sex as a collective for a long time that needs to keep growing healthier. Like might it be that we fear difference and statistically the queer community is gonna be a smaller fraction of our overall population and so we don’t, we don’t engage difference. Well like might these other things have influenced how we got here and we can sort of step back and say, huh, I don’t, I don’t know that it is sin.
And also this ranking sin thing has perpetuated a myth that, that we maybe need to let go of.
Wendy:
Yeah. Well I know that that just everything you’ve shared probably gives so many people listening. Just the courage to to, to even take that first step forward to start learning and considering all of this, right? Like that’s just the first step and then yeah. To, to, to teach your kids. You do, I mean your your, all of the work that you do on Instagram is so incredible to just, here’s how you actually teach, here’s how you use this story. And it’s not, it’s not all around this subject. It’s around all things faith wise and, and teaching kids about Jesus. But it’s so beautiful to have such a strong mentor, Meredith, to teach us how to have these conversations, how to teach our children and so families.
I hope this conversation today has helped you with being, you know, becoming confident to be an affirming family within your own home with your own children, but also with all children and people around you. Right. I think it’s just every so much starts within our own home with our own children and then it, it radiates out. Right. The last statistic I wanted to end with to, to make sure it’s just helps us highlight. So the Trevor Project has some great stat stats about the LGBQTA. Now, I get it wrong, I get it wrong right at the end. LGBQT+ community. So, so this was a study that was done I think pretty recently, maybe last year, almost half of LGBTQ youth has seriously attempted suicide in the past year.
And LGBTQ youth who felt high social support from their family reported attempting suicide at less than half of that rate. So, so you cut, you take that rate and then you cut it in half. If these kids are around what we’re talking about, like you are not broken, you are exactly who God made you to be. You are fully supported, you can take, you fully belong in this family, you fully belong in this community, you fully belong in this or even elements of that. It completely supported their mental health and brought them so much like away from death. Like how can you deny that, right? Like, I mean just, just the, just the support of a human being.
So it’s just so, so impactful. And go find Meredith, which by the way, you guys, let’s, let’s finish off with that Meredith. Where can listeners come find you if they wanna learn more? Obviously it’s Instagram and where else, but tell us your Instagram handle and all the things you need a podcast by the way.
Meredith:
I, well I, so I sort of have a podcast. Oh what I have is a podcast for kids. It’s called Ask Away and my kids help me make it. It is a lot of fun. We do bible stories and then we invite kid listeners to send in their questions. And so if you’re in a spot where you’re sort of revisiting, especially the first stories we tell kids and how we represent God through those stories in the way that is not go be a good kid, go be a good kid. We’re just kind of doing that in a way that’s hopefully fun and we’re trying to kind of tell them in ways that are age accessible and appropriate. And so that’s been a ton of fun. And then I do write most of all on Instagram. My handle is Meredith Anne Miller, it’s Anne with an e – and then at my website, which is just meredithannemiller.com, you could sign up for a newsletter I send that’s about once a month.
Just that gives more space to a parent question and a kid question where you can have a little more nuance. Cuz people have great questions that don’t always have tidy answers and we’re not trying to wrap everything up with a bow, but can we give things a little more depth and like this kind of topic, right? This is an ongoing one. This doesn’t post in a nice tidy way. And so that’s the newsletter space. And then the book is called Woven: Nurturing A Faith Your Kid Doesn’t Have To Heal From and it’ll be out in August of ’23.
Wendy:
And I’m sure pre-orders they’ll be a pre
Meredith:
Pre-orders are live. They
Wendy:
Yeah. Are they’re live right now?
Meredith:
Yeah, you could be, you could be ready to roll. So, okay.
Wendy:
All there. I’m gonna, I I always record your guys’ intro before, after, before. Does that make sense? Yes. And we’ll make sure we get listeners go pre-order Meredith book. I know it helps authors like you so much to have a lot of pre-orders, so please go pre-order. I’m sure it’s like Amazon and all the places,
Meredith:
It’s all the places books are sold. Yeah, all
Wendy:
It’s all the places books are sold. Amazing. Superficial. Okay, we’re gonna light up the pre-orders. Make sure you guys share this episode. If you loved it, go give Meredith some love on on Instagram. We’ll make sure we put the links in the show notes. But the Bible studies or Ask Away podcast is on all the podcast platforms. It is perfect. Yeah. Well maybe I’ll have you on to talk about that one too because that, that like subject about what you do on that show because that’s really, I know so many families would love to hear you just teach more like that. That’s amazing. So anyways, go check out her podcast. You guys, thanks for being here. Thank you for being open for this conversation. A huge thanks to the LGBQT+ community for being patient with me as I learn and just all the things and just holding space for me to step into this conversation.
Meredith, again, thank you for your work. What you’re doing in the world is so meaningful and just thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening everybody.
All right, families, that’s a wrap. I hope you love today’s episode. As much as I loved recording it for you, it is now time to get yourself into the Fresh Start experience, a full support program for parents looking for clear answers and easy to implement guidance on how to redirect their children’s misbehavior with integrity, connection, and long-term effectiveness. You can head on over to freshstartfamily online.com/jointoday to enjoy a hundred percent off the joining fee. Plus get two months free when you choose our Family transformation package.
But hurry, because this special spring cleaning offer ends on May 1st. All right, thanks for listening and I will see you in the next episode.
For links and more info about everything we talked about in today’s episode, head to freshstartfamilyonline.com/169.
Stella:
For more information, go to freshstartfamilyonline.com. Thanks for listening, families, have a great day.
